Tiger Board Logo

Donor's Den General Leaderboards TNET coins™ POTD Hall of Fame Map FAQ
GIVE AN AWARD
Use your TNET coins™ to grant this post a special award!

W
50
Big Brain
90
Love it!
100
Cheers
100
Helpful
100
Made Me Smile
100
Great Idea!
150
Mind Blown
150
Caring
200
Flammable
200
Hear ye, hear ye
200
Bravo
250
Nom Nom Nom
250
Take My Coins
500
Ooo, Shiny!
700
Treasured Post!
1000

YOUR BALANCE
DRad Crystal Ball
storage This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic
Replies: 99
| visibility 1

DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 20, 2019, 10:10 AM

I am trying to picture what conversation DRad will have with BRad.

Agree that times with renovation were tough.
Now BRad has fallen short of expectations. Mine were high given last years success, returning players, and recruits.

He's mastering the transfer route, since Clemson is a solid place for second chances with good exposure and lots of playing time. Big names, not so much. Diamonds in the rough, 1 every 3 years or so. He's done a nice job co-opting the family recruiting theme.

What's missing is the ability to generate excitement. And to get to where we have people willing to wait in line for tickets.

Also, the difference in close games is more than a play or a call. It's the preparation and mentality to step up and make the play. That seems to be lacking unless there is an individual player driving it.

What will DRad do?
Does he give BRad another year?

I think he will, right or wrong.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 20, 2019, 10:15 AM

I would suspect that the availability and willingness of a perfect fit coach to come to Clemson may have some influence on that decision. If there is a great hire available, that may push DRad in the direction of a move. If not, another year isn't going to do that much damage.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 20, 2019, 10:15 AM

look at the last 9 years as a whole, and evaluate:

2 NCAAT berths
3 NIT's
4 years w/ zero postseason
Declining attendance
Declining excitement
Pattern of just not getting it done (falling just short)

At some point, excuses have to stop. I have supported Brad a ton. I've given reasons he should be retained in the past. However, at some point you have to look at past coaches who succeeded, and the current one who is not, and make a decision.

This same pattern can't continue. It's been the SAME THING for 9 years.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 20, 2019, 10:40 AM

You ask how the same thing keeps going...

2 NCAAT berths (22%) -outright robbed one year.
3 NIT's (33%)
4 years w/ zero postseason (44%)

Clemson historically (out of 107 years):

11 NCAA Berths or 10% (omitting vacated years)
17 NIT or 15%
78 w/ zero post seasons 73%

Hate to say it but the past 9 years have been some of our most successful.

Even taking the modern era only (including Maravich on) Brownell is still ahead of the curb.


Clemson is a hard basketball gig. The landscape is different and goign 7-9 in ACC and 18-14 in the season will not make the tournament anymore. Seriously, Rick Barnes would not have made the tournament 2 of his 3 years with how the committee values teams now. Brownell has had better conference and overall records that Barnes 2nd best season and not been dancing. Heck Brad has had a season AS GOOD AS Barnes's best season and not been dancing.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

The results when you compare them do not lie


Mar 20, 2019, 11:01 AM

it is what it is

Stop playing the "he wouldn't have made it now" game. The results are what matters. Period.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: The results when you compare them do not lie


Mar 20, 2019, 11:13 AM

Exactly, are you the "results only fan" that only googles the score the next day or do you actually bother to follow the modern basketball landscape. Because it sounds like you are not paying attention to the selection process.

Barnes went dancing with:
95-96 18-11 7-9
97-98 18-14 7-9

Brad didn't go dancing
18-19 20-13 9-9
13-14 23-13 10-8

Seriously, Brad has "failed" seasons in you book that were better than Barnes better seasons.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

You do understand the ACC was far different


Mar 20, 2019, 11:24 AM

Deeper, and better then dont you? That you played a Round Robin schedule? This year Clemson played as many teams with losing conference records as winning ones. Our SOS in Barnes 3 year NCAA run was never worse than 11th in the country with a high of 8th in 95-96

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: You do understand the ACC was far different


Mar 20, 2019, 12:25 PM

I disagree there. Often deeper, not always.

95-96 had 3 ranked teams at the end of the season. Duke (8-8) was 4th. Granted Tech and Wake were better, but the mid-90s saw some weak years. Barnes' 96-97 has a better argument. In 96, none made it past the sweet 16 and GT was a 3 seed and Wake was a 2 seed, the highest seeded team that year. I would make a case that this year was much tougher overall although the bottom of this year was weaker. 98 was better with Duke/Carolina being dominant again, but only Maryland provided something.

Round robin is a mixed bag and I preferred that format. It kinda always allows for a shot of a home-court knock-off. But since then, the trend in basketball is that the upper tier is a lot stronger in major conferences but also weak side is only slightly weaker. Being mid-tier is kinda a different spot. This year was a weaker schedule but we almost won (save for Miami). Still, over time, the conference strength of schedule normalizes and while it isn't always two games against everyone at 1.000 vs 0.000 but it will trend towards the median.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Our SOS was 8th in the country in 95-96***


Mar 20, 2019, 12:33 PM



flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Our SOS was 8th in the country in 95-96***


Mar 20, 2019, 12:51 PM

I am not seeing 8th. 32nd with a metric of 8.18

SOS: 8.18 (32nd of 305)

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/clemson/1996.html


Which is spitting distance for this year SOS 41

RPI Rank: 60 SOS Rank: 41 Record: 19-13 (9-10)
Conference: Atlantic Coast

http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_122_Men.html

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

That team also beat 4 top 25 teams, 1 top 10


Mar 20, 2019, 1:00 PM

96-97 5 top 25 teams, 3 top 10. What's the lesson there?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

It proves the problem


Mar 20, 2019, 2:03 PM

BB has 17 total wins in 9 years over teams that finish above .500 in ACC play. He only has 11 in the last 9 years. That’s a problem. That’s why we have only been to 2 NCAAT’s

Great post btw

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: It proves the problem


Mar 20, 2019, 2:31 PM

Proves the problem?

He is still winning more than Barnes. BB has 1.9 wins per son over .500+ teams than Barnes 1.75.

Rick Barnes had 7 wins in 4 years. He was 7-23 against team above .500 in ACC play.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

***Crickets******


Mar 20, 2019, 4:01 PM



2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


this makes me laugh


Mar 20, 2019, 4:37 PM



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Dude man, give it up! You're obsessed against Brownlee


Mar 21, 2019, 4:01 AM

You are starting to sound like one of those Big 12 conference switchers.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: That team also beat 4 top 25 teams, 1 top 10


Mar 20, 2019, 2:14 PM [ in reply to That team also beat 4 top 25 teams, 1 top 10 ]

Yes, the 96-97 year was a much better example. That year they were 8th in SOS that year and it was a very strong team. The ACC was much stronger. Top heavy and even FSU/NCST weren't bad.

They beat Kentucky, 2-1 with Maryland, and 1-1 with Duke? The also dropped two to Wake and UNC.

Then again, how is this different than last year when we beat UNC, Miami, Ohio State, and (limping) Florida. SRS was 27th so not as strong overall there but more wins vs ranked teams, just not a Kentucky level upset.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

It's different because it's the outlier for Brad


Mar 20, 2019, 2:18 PM

he just doesn't beat enough good teams consistently. When he does, he makes the tourney. Just doesn't happen near enough. You can't just feast on the bottom feeders

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

11 wins in 7 years over teams above .500 in ACC play***


Mar 20, 2019, 2:20 PM



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: It's different because it's the outlier for Brad


Mar 20, 2019, 2:32 PM [ in reply to It's different because it's the outlier for Brad ]

Rick Barnes had 7 wins over .500+ team in 4 years. He was 7-23 against team above .500 in ACC play.

To first challenge he top order you have to take care of the bottom feeders.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

7 in 4 years before ACC expansion


Mar 20, 2019, 2:36 PM

Brad has had 4 years where he had either 1, or ZERO

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


How many of those under .500 were ranked?


Mar 20, 2019, 2:37 PM [ in reply to Re: It's different because it's the outlier for Brad ]

Seeing as he beat 8 ranked ACC teams just in 95-96/96-97? Which goes back to the league being deeper, and better. How many ranked teams to Brad beat this year? How many in 9 years?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: How many of those under .500 were ranked?


Mar 20, 2019, 2:58 PM

One of those prime examples would have been Virginia that was ranked early and then finished ACC play 6-10 unranked. I went by where the team finished the year, not by where they were thought to be halfway.

Didn't brad knock of back-to-back-to-back ranked teams not long ago? Brad is good for a couple of upsets a year, but that seems to be the average even for RB and OP. 1 This year, 5 last year.

The league wasn't deeper, it just did deviate as much top-to-bottom. The gap between the bottom and top has widen but the league isn't weaker.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

You can argue BB is the same as OP and Barnes all day


Mar 20, 2019, 3:03 PM

but the results tell a different story. Period. If BB had the same wins, we would have been to the NCAAT more than twice, and would not have had 4 years with no postseason

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: You can argue BB is the same as OP and Barnes all day


Mar 20, 2019, 3:11 PM

As I mentioned earlier. Rick Barnes would not be selected to go dancing with his record in modern selection committee thinking. Being 7-9 and 18-14 isn't good enough anymore. Those spots are going to the mid-major teams. The landscape has changed completely for the dance.

Brownell had had multiple seasons with a better record than Barnes and not gone dancing. He should be credited for three but the 13-14 was a horrific snub against a deserving team.


If all you are looking at is the "result count" between different eras then then you are missing the context of the current and former basketball ecosystem.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Well, '96-'97 was the outlier for Barnes.


Mar 20, 2019, 4:02 PM [ in reply to It's different because it's the outlier for Brad ]

Other than the one Sweet 16 run where we played a tough schedule and did well in postseason play, we didn't do squat in the postseason. For as good as the '96-'97 team was, his '97-'98 team was a huge disappointment.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


It’s not different... that’s the thing


Mar 20, 2019, 2:18 PM [ in reply to Re: That team also beat 4 top 25 teams, 1 top 10 ]

last was an outlier under BB. It was not an outlier under Barnes, or even OP.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: It’s not different... that’s the thing


Mar 20, 2019, 2:36 PM

Outlier? Actually it fits BB habit of being a .500 coach. He has be +/- 1 game from .500 most seasons and that year he was +2. Winning one more game does not make it an outlier.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Wrong


Mar 20, 2019, 2:42 PM

here are his numbers vs teams finishing above .500 in ACC play. Regular season only:

2010-11: 3-3
2011-12: 3-3
2012-13: 1-9
2013-14: 1-5
2014-15: 0-7
2015-16: 3-5
2016-17: 0-11
2017-18: 4-5
2018-19: 2-7

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Wrong


Mar 20, 2019, 3:04 PM

What are you on about? I am talking about a whole, not just a few games. Brad has been about .500 +/- 2 games most of his tenure. For us, that makes him fairly darn successful.

You are faulting him for being


Rick Barnes was 7-23 against the same metric .233
Brownell is 17-55 .236

He is literally as successful as Rick Barnes.

The only difference is that BB stuck around. We know that RB has rebuilding seasons (see texas' flow) but we never say that happen due to his short tenure.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

“as successful”??? Haha


Mar 20, 2019, 3:06 PM

the NCAAT says otherwise

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Brad has actually been more successful in NCAA Tournament


Mar 20, 2019, 4:35 PM

games at Clemson:

Rick Barnes was 2-3 in NCAA Tournament games.

Brad Brownell is 3-2 in NCAA Tournament games.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


did you really just throw that stat out there? Guess you


Mar 21, 2019, 3:00 PM

overlooked the fact that Barnes was in 5 NCAAT games in 4 years

BB has been in 5 in 9 years, including a "First Four" game, after expansion.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


So now you're trying to change the argument.


Mar 21, 2019, 3:47 PM

The point is that Brad has a better NCAA Tournament record (i.e., performance in meaningful postseason play) than Rick Barnes or Oliver Purnell did at Clemson.

You frequently mention wanting to deal with facts, and those are the facts.

He also has a better ACC winning percentage than both of those coaches. Also a fact.

Unfortunately, we can't really compare entire tenures because both Barnes and Purnell bailed on Clemson and thus didn't coach here as long as Brad has. And that brings us to another very important fact, which is that you seem to hold Barnes and Purnell up as the standard among Clemson basketball coaches. No coach who bailed on Clemson - especially as rudely as both of those coaches did - should be our shining example of what it means to be successful at Clemson.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I've never argued NCAAT winning %... ever


Mar 21, 2019, 3:57 PM

My argument is appearances

I don't care about beating the bottom half of the ACC... I want to go to the NCAAT more than 2 in 9 years. Both Barnes and OP did that, and built it into consistency. (3 in a row for both their last 3 years)...

but hey... 9 years into BB, and he should get a pass b/c of support and beating the bottom of the ACC

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


I don't understand why NCAA Tournament appearances


Mar 21, 2019, 4:10 PM

is your gold standard for success, especially since the two coaches you are using as examples were a combined 2-6 in NCAA Tournaments at Clemson.

In four of those six appearances, we were the higher ranked seed and lost.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


what? You don't think getting into the NCAAT is the


Mar 21, 2019, 4:14 PM

standard for success? You think there are other things that equate to that?

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Of course that shouldn't be the only important factor.


Mar 21, 2019, 4:20 PM

It should be one important factor, but certainly not the only one.

How the coach does in ACC play, in non-conference play, how he recruits, how he develops players, how he does with the resources he is given, how well his players conduct themselves on and off the court, how well players do academically, and being ethical/not cheating are all important factors.

Oh, and the coach should also love Clemson. Brad does. Barnes and Purnell clearly didn't.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


making the NCAAT is an indication of


Mar 21, 2019, 4:21 PM

how he does in ACC play
how he does in OOC play
how he develops players
how he recruits (for the most part)

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


That system would be perfect


Mar 21, 2019, 4:24 PM

if it were as easy to get into the NCAA Tournament now as it was in previous decades.

But it isn't.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


show me how it was easier***


Mar 21, 2019, 4:30 PM



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


look at SOS and compare them***


Mar 20, 2019, 11:39 AM [ in reply to Re: The results when you compare them do not lie ]



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: look at SOS and compare them***


Mar 20, 2019, 12:54 PM

Did and it doesn't support ya.

SOS from 95-96 Barnes vs 18-19 BB are within a spitting distance, likely within the range of error.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I’m not sure you want to compare them over multiple years


Mar 20, 2019, 2:04 PM

I’ll have to go back and find it, but I have ran these numbers in the past, and I believe both Barnes and OP had a tougher ACC SOS than BB has had.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: The results when you compare them do not lie


Mar 20, 2019, 12:44 PM [ in reply to The results when you compare them do not lie ]

Snowtown® said:

it is what it is

Stop playing the "he wouldn't have made it now" game. The results are what matters. Period.



This ^

What about all the close loses? The less than 20% winning percentage in close games by 3 pts or less?

What is that % compared to whole history?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 20, 2019, 11:12 AM [ in reply to Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad ]

Disagree with your logic on the numbers. You have to compare only the seasons since the tournament expansion of 64 teams. Can’t compare days where you only got in if you won a regular season title or an ACC Tournament championship.

You’d have to do a win comparable to see the wins barnes had vs wins brad has. Can’t use we got robbed argument.

The facts are that brad doesn’t win big games very often. I have no problem with drad keeping him because of grad rates, no off court problems, clean programs, good image for school etc but not wins/losses. Wins and losses then you really can’t justify keeping him.

No history of bringing in talent on recruiting trail. As for brad being a good look for the university??? I don’t think he’s firy enough. You never see him get really passionate about Clemson.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg2016_pickem_champ.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 20, 2019, 11:22 AM

I will stand by that the 13-14 team got robbed. The selection committee reach down to a 9-9 state team that we beat by 17 points.

Even when you take into consideration the expanded field in 1985, we are NCAA 11 of 34 years which Brad is tracking with. Even then the mid-table power conference allotment for NCAA tournament teams has shrunk. This is easily seen when Brad is 10-8 in conference but missing the dance.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

He goes 10-8 or 9-9 and misses the dance


Mar 20, 2019, 2:14 PM

because he rarely beats anyone of consequence. What's so hard to understand about that? Barnes and OP did

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 21, 2019, 6:40 PM [ in reply to Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad ]

I’m sorry, but is it really hard to understand how going .500 in the ACC is much easier today? The ACC under Barnes had 8 teams other than Clemson. In the 96-97 year every team except for GT had an overall winning record

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 21, 2019, 6:46 PM [ in reply to Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad ]

I’m sorry, but is it really hard to understand how going .500 in the ACC is much easier today? The ACC under Barnes had 8 teams other than Clemson. In the 96-97 year every team except for GT had an overall winning record.

This year, 6 ACC teams had an overall losing record. 7 of our 9 ACC wins came against teams that had an overall losing record on the season. Overall we played 8 ACC games against teams with an overall losing record where in the 96-97 season we only had 2 games(the 2 against GT) against teams below .500.

That’s not to mention having to play Duke, UNC, and UVA only once per team this year when we would’ve had to play each of them twice back in that time.

Yet, you’re seriously arguing that it’s a more difficult task to make the NCAA tournament today,

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 20, 2019, 12:10 PM [ in reply to Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad ]

Going back 100+ years is an inaccurate way to assess his success. Just go back to when the NCAA tourney expanded to 64. Prior to that you basically had to win your conference to go to the tourney.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgmilitary_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 20, 2019, 4:01 PM [ in reply to Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad ]

cant compare that way. under the old rules we would never be in because we havent won the conf tourney regardless of coach. its just completely apples to oranges versus now

badge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-74tiger.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Did you even look at the field this year?


Mar 21, 2019, 8:36 AM [ in reply to Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad ]

So how are Oklahoma(7-11), Ohio St(8-12), Minnesota(9-11), and St. John's(8-10) in the tourney with sub .500 conference records? Answer, drum roll please, they beat good teams. Brad rarely does. So we find ourselves 2-9 when it comes to making the dance. Barnes and OP beat good teams

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad


Mar 20, 2019, 11:16 AM [ in reply to I agree with some of that... but at what point does DRad ]

At any point in your thoughts on basketball do you consider that the past 2 or 3 years play a larger part in DRad's thinking than something that happened 6 or 7 years ago?

If you look at Brownell's career at Clemson in thirds, the most recent third has been the most successful even with the disappointment of missing the NCAA tournament this season.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Winning creates excitement and people standing in line


Mar 20, 2019, 10:31 AM

for tickets. And there's a pretty high threshold required to get Clemson students and fans excited about basketball. I'm not sure a young rah rah coach is going to move the needle with Clemson fans unless he is also successful early on.

I get that Brad is kind of boring and his style is fairly boring and people are upset that he's only made the tournament twice in a 9 years, but if you are looking at this from the perspective of the Athletic Department, he's also a pretty safe and solid guy to have leading the basketball program - which is and always will be 2nd fiddle to football at Clemson. DRad knows that with Brad at the helm the basketball program will never be an embarrassment and he won't have to spend a ton of money on the coach - money that he's probably happy to spend on football instead of basketball. If he fires Brad right now there's the risk of hiring another Shyatt - a truly bad coach that takes Clemson basketball from a respectable level (consistently around .500 in ACC play) to a doormat. That likely leads to paying a 2nd consecutive buyout and the possibility of paying 3 coaches at once. I don't think that's where we want to be with the basketball program - dumping money on coaches that we could be spending on football.

Of course there's also the possibility that the next coach is great and maybe we even get doubly lucky and that guys decides to stay instead of using Clemson as a stepping stone to a better job, but I'm not sure DRad wants to take that risk right now. Maybe if Brad fails to make the tournament and show progress in recruiting in the next couple of years, but right now the potential negatives from firing Brad seem to outweigh the positives IMO.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

your last sentence is what has been happening for the


Mar 20, 2019, 10:35 AM

previous nine years.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


I don't know that there's much he can tell him. Brad


Mar 20, 2019, 10:58 AM

is what he is and not much is going to change. His style is boring but it's just good enough to keep heads above water, be middle of the pack ACC, make the tourney every 4 or 5 years, and stay out of trouble. I don't think Brad is just going to be able to all the sudden turn it on and have us at the next level. So it all comes down to its DRad O. K with this or does he want to chance another coach who might can win and bring more excitement.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 20, 2019, 11:12 AM

My gut tells me that with all the nervousness out there right now about who could get caught up in the pay for play FBI investigation we stay the course. Would be bad to let Brad go, then hire someone who looks lilly white clean only to find out he was taking a payoff at some point and not found just yet.

military_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 20, 2019, 11:17 AM

Excellent point. The FBI has not shown their complete hand yet. We don’t want to end up with a Will Wade surprise on our hands.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 20, 2019, 11:18 AM [ in reply to Re: DRad Crystal Ball ]

While I agree with your premise, I think Drad could put together a team that would know that info.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg2016_pickem_champ.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 20, 2019, 11:30 AM

It will be interesting reading these bball comments next year. No true point guard, Newmann with minimal points, no inside threat, Tyler looks afraid to shoot, Simms the best of the rest imo. Just look at this NIT game and see virtually NO bench scoring. That's the future unless Zion or his clone transfers here. As we've seen in football, it starts with recruiting - totally missing. Still don't know what all the "suits" on the bench bring to the success. Signed - a season ticket holder.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 21, 2019, 2:13 PM

We have a true PG coming in next year.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

It's almost a certainty that Brad is here


Mar 20, 2019, 11:43 AM [ in reply to Re: DRad Crystal Ball ]

at least for next year unless he leaves for another job on his own, so all this stuff will be out by then. BTW, I think there's a greater chance Brad does move on now than at any point in his tenure. Just a sense

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: It's almost a certainty that Brad is here


Mar 20, 2019, 12:04 PM

^ Yeah, I see that as a real possibility.

I think any program with high academic standard needing a "clean" and winning coach would see what Brad could do with more resources. Put him at a Georgetown or UCONN and see if he could do it.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

The Brownlee apologists have moved from OP left the


Mar 20, 2019, 5:27 PM

cupboard bare(even though he won with OP's players in his first year), to every other excuse in the book.

They claim he's a great guy, and brilliant when it comes to X's and O's.

If so, how can you defend where we finished after starting the season with high expectations, top 25 team, that is the best returning team he's ever had?

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


A few things.


Mar 20, 2019, 7:44 PM

1. Leaving the cupboard bare doesn't mean that there was no talent for Brownell's first year. There obviously was. But there was nothing after that, due to Purnell's poor recruiting his last few cycles. That's why there was a huge drop-off in year two.
2. They aren't excuses.
3. This season was disappointing, but it hasn't been nearly as bad as some of you suggest.
4. This isn't the best returning team Brad has had. Last year's team was better.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


How so? Grantham and Devoe entered last year


Mar 20, 2019, 8:27 PM

as three year disappointments. Skara and Simms were unknowns. The 3 transfers were solid but hardly game changers in their first year. Things clicked with a veteran squad and it was great. Things didn't click with an equally veteran squad this year with far higher expectations this year. So how can you call a team that surprised everyone that was picked 10-12 in the league his best returning team?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I thought last year’s team could’ve been a Final Four team


Mar 20, 2019, 11:07 PM

if Grantham stayed healthy. I knew that would be a good team. I expected this year’s team to be good too, but losing who we did I didn’t think we were likely to be as good as last year’s team.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Entering the year you believed we were


Mar 20, 2019, 11:42 PM

a potential Final Four team?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I knew it had the chance to be a special team.


Mar 21, 2019, 2:06 PM

I was thinking possible Final Four when we were 15-2, prior to Donte Grantham's injury.

Losing Grantham, DeVoe, and Donnal off of last year's team should've caused everyone to wonder if we would be as good this year. I expected us to be an NCAA Tournament team, but thought that another Sweet 16 run was a stretch given those losses.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


You thought coming into last year we could be a Final Four


Mar 21, 2019, 12:35 AM [ in reply to I thought last year’s team could’ve been a Final Four team ]

team?

Are you serious? I am pretty sure that is what you just said. There is no questions this year's team was BB's best returning team. No question. The guys that stepped up last year all were coming back, hence the pre-season ranking.

Just to be clear... one more time... you thought, before last year started, that we could be a Final Four Team? A team picked near the bottom of the ACC?

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Not at the start of the year.


Mar 21, 2019, 2:07 PM

I was thinking possible Final Four when we were 15-2, prior to Donte Grantham's injury. However, at the start of last year I did think that team was a definite tournament team with the potential to do some damage.

Losing Grantham, DeVoe, and Donnal off of last year's team should've caused everyone to wonder if we would be as good this year. I expected us to be an NCAA Tournament team, but thought that another Sweet 16 run was a stretch given those losses.

No way was this year's returning team as talented as last year's.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


He's had the equivalent of Bowden getting 3-4 more years


Mar 20, 2019, 8:56 PM

he's gone

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

null


Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 20, 2019, 10:27 PM

Unless Brad walks away himself I don’t see us changing coaches.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Go Tigers! Once A Tiger Always A Tiger


Re: DRad Crystal Ball


Mar 21, 2019, 12:04 AM

DRad keeping Brownell 1 more year

Keep 75% Hit the bricks 25%

He'll likely give him 1 more season with a must make NCAA ultimatum to keep his job.


I watch every Clemson televised game and our roster for next year is weak in ACC quality players. It will be a miracle to even go .500 next year. DRad will make a change then, which is about 5 years later than it should have been.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson


Mar 21, 2019, 12:16 AM

Leave him alone. He deserves combat pay. You people ##### way too much. You compare basketball and baseball to football. News flash -- You don't win them all in basketball and baseball. As a former ACC assistant once said, I would rather have an STD than the head coaching job at Clemson.

2024 purple level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson


Mar 21, 2019, 6:58 AM

This is exactly why Clemson struggles in basketball. An attitude that it's "too tough" to win at Clemson and look who we play against. Far too many "fans" accept mediocrity that we have with Brownell. I for one choose to not throw the towel in so easily.

There is virtually NO excitement surrounding men's basketball because our coach is a quiet, boring guy. A goal of making the NCAA tournament every year should be our bottom line not our dream.

9 years for Brad is a lengthy tenure. He has had his chance and Clemson made him a very wealthy man. It's time for someone else to try.

.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson


Mar 21, 2019, 7:05 AM

turf2 said:

This is exactly why Clemson struggles in basketball. An attitude that it's "too tough" to win at Clemson and look who we play against. Far too many "fans" accept mediocrity that we have with Brownell. I for one choose to not throw the towel in so easily.

There is virtually NO excitement surrounding men's basketball because our coach is a quiet, boring guy. A goal of making the NCAA tournament every year should be our bottom line not our dream.

9 years for Brad is a lengthy tenure. He has had his chance and Clemson made him a very wealthy man. It's time for someone else to try.

.



Make the dance every year? You are insane.

DRad to CBB: 20+ wins, competative in all games, strong incoming class, made postseason and did it on a limited budget. Great job and see ya next year

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson


Mar 21, 2019, 2:16 PM

The NIT doesn't count as making the post season. It's meaningless.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

To you.***


Mar 21, 2019, 2:19 PM



2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: To you.***


Mar 21, 2019, 2:20 PM

To pretty much the whole nation.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I don't really care how the rest of the nation views the NIT


Mar 21, 2019, 4:52 PM

I am going to watch our games and enjoy them, because it's a chance to watch Clemson basketball. I've seen how hard these players and coaches have worked, especially after it would've been easy to mail it in and quit after some horrible bad luck.

It's not the tournament we wanted, but it's still Clemson hoops.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


You hit the nail on the head.


Mar 21, 2019, 2:18 PM [ in reply to Re: BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson ]

Our fans must stop thinking that we have a right to be successful in basketball at our current level of investment.

Can Clemson be a basketball power? Absolutely! Should we work toward being a team that can reasonably expect to be in the NCAA Tournament every year? Yes, I believe so. But to do that, we can't continue funding basketball at a pathetic rate and continuing to have lackluster fan support only when it is convenient.

We must stop using the "we're a football school and proud of it" mentality as an excuse to continue treating basketball like a second-rate sport.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


why does the standard drop for BB?


Mar 21, 2019, 2:32 PM

why can't we expect the level of success Barnes and OP had?

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson


Mar 21, 2019, 9:04 AM [ in reply to Re: BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson ]

Well, Clemson definitely doesn't make it easy for a coach to win. When we rank last 14 of 15 in basketball resources, our "renovations" are 1/2 the investments of other programs, and fan support is greater for the football team AT a basketball game. Very rarely has there been excitement for basketball at all, even during the OP years as the only games I remember selling out are the same UNC/Duke games. Last year we were a legitimately good team and LJ was still emptier than a Soccer game most nights. Recruiting has always been an issue but what incoming recruit wants to play in an empty arena?

Our coach is boring. He doesn't cheat, he graduates his players, and we wins more often than not. What is wrong with that? But he wins and even produces upsets at the same pace as Rick Barnes.

Brad is a solid B+ coach at a football first school. We can and often do far worse. We can fault him for not being exciting or outrageous, but he has consistently out-performed with the resources available. In addition, the basketball ecosystem has changed, so being a non-basketball school in an era with a shrinking non-elite major programs is a dangerous spot. Realistically, this team should never have been 9-9 in conference and sniffing 20 wins. We lack point production and turned it over easily. The locker-room should have collapsed after being ranked-then-1-5. But Brad rallied and perhaps turned in his best coaching result so far in the 8-4 run to close the season. That sounds odd, but the best coaching jobs are always the guy at the top of the table, but rather the guy in the middle when he should be at the bottom.

NCAA is very, very tough to do every year, even harder when you have 4-6 elite level programs in conference that will out-spend you 4:1 without thinking about it. Even Hamilton has his share of NIT runs. Indiana, Texas, UCLA, Georgetown, and Arizona have struggled, and those programs will invest more to get less than what we have.

I think our goal is to win each game one at a time, not to "just make the tourney" and Brad is keeps us close to that goal.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I think you undervalue Clemson basketball


Mar 21, 2019, 2:28 PM

Recent history says we can be an NCAAT team more than twice in 9 years. Period. OP and Barnes built that to consistency.

Why do the standards drop for BB?

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


So since you are unwilling to accept mediocrity...


Mar 21, 2019, 2:14 PM [ in reply to Re: BB Won 20 Games In Consecutive Years At Clemson ]

does that mean that you agree we can't continue to have the second lowest basketball budget in the ACC? Surely you aren't one of those fans who thinks that we can try to do everything on the cheap but still demand success.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Why does BB get the excuse of "not enough money and


Mar 21, 2019, 2:27 PM

resources" for only going to 2 NCAATs in 9 years... but Barnes and OP became conisistent NCAAT teams with the same issues.

Why is it not ok for fans to look at 2 NCAATs- 4 years of no postseason- 4 years where we have either won ONE or ZERO game against ACC teams .500 or better and demand more?

Why is that?

Where is the line?

The bottom line is that BB has not won the games he needed to in order to be more successful. Period. That is why we can't get to the NCAAT. I don't understand spouting off his ACC record, overall record, etc... when the stats CLEARLY show he can't win the games that would equate to advancing to postseason play. (NCAAT)

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Why does BB get the excuse of "not enough money and


Mar 21, 2019, 3:15 PM

Barnes and Op didn't STAY. Both road hidden NBA gems to moderate success and then up and left.

Would Barnes have start having a limited return after Buckner left? Don't know. Not likely as Barnes was everything between 64 and Final Four but eventually only really being a first/second round team. He never beat Kansas.

It is fairly safe to say that OP would not been able to keep it going as the fight kinda left him... and Booker was hit ticket and that meal ticket decreased in his Junior and Senior year. There was hard road ahead of OP at Clemson post Booker.

Ok, why does "Brownell" get a pass.

10- Won out of the gate.
Rebuilding pass in 11-13
13-14 ROBBED.... 23-13, 10-8 - which rivaled Barnes/OP's best years.
15-16 - Lack of facilities/renovation, but the team played well, and was still mid-table ACC. Actually, he had a weak shot at the dance as he knocked off 4 of 5 ranked opponents in consecutive weeks. OOC issued doomed us.
17- The year would could consider that he wasn't cutting it as the drop to 6-12 in conference was a concern. Put him on the hot seat. However, he was recruiting kids for the previous years in a construction site.
18- Patience pays off. Sweet Sixteen, breaks records.
19 - Like a win away. Still, he turned around a struggling year with missing pieces.


The stats suggest he might be the best coach Clemson has had, at least rivals Barnes and has done it cleanly.

What you can't realize is that the landscape in basketball has changed. You can't go with 17 wins be 1 game under .500 and be in the dance like Barnes did. There are fewer seats in the 64 tournament now for mid-level power conferences as mid-majors are the trendy choice. In addition, we now have to deal with two basketball-focused Syracuse and Louisville in the conference. Not only that but the competition for Clemson level players (non 5 stars) has increased as mid-majors consume more talent leading to a drop in the level of play in mid/bottom tier power programs. Brad Brownell is bucking that trend. Considering the cheating and payments of so many basketball programs, the fact that Brad is doing it the right way at a historic football school makes it even more impressive. We know that Ellis was a bit crooked, I think Barnes was as well. OP was clean to my knowledge, and Brownell is Clark Kent.

Oh, and he is doing all this with bottom barrel support.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

so... just so i'm clear on this


Mar 21, 2019, 3:27 PM

1. he wins
2. he rebuilds
3. he gets robbed
4. now lack of facilities/resources
5. 2nd NCAAT
6. robbed again/ win away

I don't get this. I don't understand why we had 2 recent coaches who went to the NCAAT 6 of 11 years, including going each year their last 3 years.

Suddenly we get BB, and we should not be upset about 2 in 9 because, well he doesn't have support and he has a pretty good ACC record vs. the bottom half.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: so... just so i'm clear on this


Mar 21, 2019, 3:59 PM

So I get it. You don't follow basketball. That is fine.

Basketball in the Barnes era doesn't exist anymore. The landscape has changed.

OP is a good coach, great re-builder, but he stumbled upon an un-recruited NBA talent and was able to milk it. At the same time, anyone following basketball could tell that OP was reliant on the press gimmick and could not adapt when the other team was able to provide a solution. See the GT (08 or 09 tournament game?) where they basically ran a layup drill on us for the entire game. See the same thing about OP's last game against Mizzu. Lay-up drill. Worse, you could see that OP did not manage the stress the press would have on the players. Our kids were gassed at the end of the game. Nova, UNC ACC CG... both you could tell that they were running on fumes and we fade late game.

Now back to Brad... say what you will about recruiting. It could be better but at the same time, not that much better. What Brad lacks in getting B+ talent he makes up for some unreal player development. I think he relies on that too much but at the same time his game plans are fantastic. He doesn't get outcoached like OP and he normally outcoaches other guys.

If you watch Clemson and follow basketball, this teams *should not* be at 20 wins. They are over performing and being coached up. Sure, they are "seniors" but that matter less when you are already an icy, turn-over prone team that lost two massive point-producing, takeover guys. Worse, the two biggest producers are injured. This team could/should have finished as bad as 10-20 and 3/4 wins in conference but we didn't.

Being pretty good against the bottom half is good. OP wasn't. He would give you some head-scratchers. Heck we are beating better talent teams. You have to wins those.

Oh, and he is beating the upper-half .500+ teams at a better rate than Barnes. So....

Oh yeah, he also wins when he gets to the Tourney

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Why are you still posting misleading stats?


Mar 21, 2019, 4:04 PM [ in reply to Why does BB get the excuse of "not enough money and ]

It was a lot easier to get into the NCAA Tournament in the mid-90s and mid-00s compared to now. Mid-major teams have greatly increased the potential pool of at-large teams. Do you really think Belmont would've gotten an at-large bid over Clemson in the past?

The same is true for the NIT. It is much harder to get into the NIT now than it was in the past. Previously, a .500 overall record was good enough for the NIT. Now? Slim chance.

So if you want to apply old rules, we would've been in the NCAA Tournament four times in Brad's 9 years (2011, 2014, 2018, and 2019). We also would've been in the NIT 3 times in Brad's 9 years (2012, 2015, and 2016). The only year not making it to postseason play would've been 2013, Brad's only losing season at Clemson.

Applying the same standard is key if we are going to try to compare different coaches from different eras. Even still, it's hard when there are a lot more good teams in the ACC now and also a lot more good teams overall (due to mid-majors and the respect they are now given).

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


by your logic, we take away BB's first NCAAT at Clemson


Mar 21, 2019, 4:07 PM

that was after expansion... it was a "First Four: game.

OK-- so BB has 1 NCAAT in 9 years, going by your logic. Give me some stats to prove it was easier then. The ACC was more difficult, as you played round-robin. You played everyone.

What are the "old rules" you speak of. Please list them.

I have given you hard facts. These coaches went this many times. Period. BB has gone this many.

You argue "old rules". Tell me what they are.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


LOL, my logic doesn't invalidate Brad's 2011


Mar 21, 2019, 4:16 PM

NCAA Tournament appearance whatsoever.

The ACC itself wasn't easier in the past, but getting into the NCAA Tournament certainly was because there were not nearly as many teams with a realistic shot of getting in. How many at-large bids from teams like Belmont, Bulter, Creighton, etc. did you see in the past? Those mid-major teams were not given nearly the consideration and respect they are now.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


how can you diminish Barnes trips by saying it was "easier"


Mar 21, 2019, 4:23 PM

but not diminish BB's when he got into a "play in" game after expansion? That, alone, epitomizes your argument. It's the same as using excuses for BB, but not being willing to apply them to others.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


If it really makes you feel better to discount


Mar 21, 2019, 4:26 PM

Brad's 2011 NCAA bid because the field was 68 instead of 64, that's fine.

Winning the argument seems to be more important to you than seeing Clemson win basketball games.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


ok... according to you.. BB is 1 for 9 in NCAAT appearances


Mar 21, 2019, 4:31 PM

and you think those pointing this out aren't interested in winning basketball games

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: ok... according to you.. BB is 1 for 9 in NCAAT appearances


Mar 21, 2019, 5:25 PM

Oh dear lawd... you were "results are results" and the doubled back when convenient.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

where's the double back?***


Mar 22, 2019, 3:29 AM



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


It could be worse, look at Georgia Tech basketball


Mar 21, 2019, 4:44 PM

For that matter, look at Georgia and South Carolina. But Georgia has turned on the recruiting in spite of how bad the suck. Still can't figure out how GT basketball is so bad located in the middle of Atlanta.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Replies: 99
| visibility 1
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic