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Bernie Sanders, in 2011, said this....
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Bernie Sanders, in 2011, said this....
Aug 7, 2017, 11:00 AM
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"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. "
Good point Bernie.
Anybody know anything about Venezuela lately?
They were the richest country in South America... but then this happened...
But his government far overspent on welfare programs, and it fixed prices for everything. It declared farmlands state property and then abandoned them, and instead made the nation dependent on selling its oil abroad.
Before he died, Chavez picked Maduro to succeed him, and Maduro kept up the regime's practices. His administration also stopped publishing any reliable statistics, including on economic growth and inflation. It accepted millions in bribes for construction projects and racked up debts that it is still struggling to pay.
Meanwhile, the only commodity Venezuela had left began to plunge in value.
Oh and this...
At the same time, Maduro's hostility to foreign business has created a corporate exodus. Pepsi (PEP), General Motors (GM)and United (UAL) are just some of the companies that have cut back or left entirely. Unemployment in Venezuela this year could reach 25%, according to the International Monetary Fund.
Inflation is only getting worse. In 2010, one American dollar was worth about eight bolivars. Today it's worth over 8,000 bolivars, according to the unofficial exchange rate, which many Venezuelans use because government rates are considered far overvalued. Prices could rise an astounding 2,000% next year.
To keep up, Maduro has raised the minimum wage three times this year. That has provided a little short-term relief to the poor, but experts say it creates long-term pain in the form of a worthless currency.
So you see kids, populism may be politically useful, and give some cash to poor people in the short-term but economically it is suicide in the long-term.
And for the Bernie lovers who assume that the source for this must be from some rightist blog, this analysis was pulled from CNN Money. Link below.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/26/news/economy/venezuela-economic-crisis/index.html
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Re: Bernie Sanders, in 2011, said this....
Aug 7, 2017, 11:10 AM
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I doubt US sanction and the drop in oil prices contributed to this, but proceed with today's installment of "social programs and taxing the wealthy will lead to catastrophe.
Message was edited by: Tigerbalm1®
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Disingenuous response.
Aug 7, 2017, 11:16 AM
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Venezuela's economy didn't depend on oil to avoid food shortages. Farms tanked after the government nationalized them. They were running smoothly when they were privately owned.
Sanctions hurt, but you don't see people in Russia literally starving do you? They rely on natural resource prices more than Venezuela AND they are hit by much harsher sanctions.
Your post was a lazy straw-man response. If you are not willing to consider the obvious historical evidence against populist economic policy, then at least be self-aware that it is an emotional issue for you, instead of a rational consideration.
Funny you laugh at Trump people for so obviously casting aside hugely obvious evidence that Trump is a vile, inept piece of garbage, but you turn around and exhibit similar behavior. (not to Trump, but to his supporters unwilling to consider the details.)
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Re: Disingenuous response.
Aug 7, 2017, 11:21 AM
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settle down chief, little early in the day for personal attacks. seems like this is an emotional issue for YOU, not the other way around.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Oh, It wasn't that bad. You straw man'd me first.
Aug 7, 2017, 11:28 AM
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Either way, you had a chance to address the points but you passed.
I responded to your points, and added minor barbs because you straw man'd my post. I thought it was fair.
Now we both called each other emo so we are even there.
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Re: Oh, It wasn't that bad. You straw man'd me first.
Aug 7, 2017, 11:40 AM
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I am still defending my "straw man" argument that the drop in oil prices CONTRIBUTED to the collapse of their economy, you went apeshit, calling me lazy, disengenuous, irrational, not self aware, etc.. Now you expect me to have have a rational discussion with you? please...
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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This was a "straw-man" argument...
Aug 7, 2017, 11:45 AM
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"social programs and taxing the wealthy will lead to catastrophe."
I never said that, and the article never said that.
I believe in social programs and a progressive tax rate. So when you present the above statement as if it is the heart of the meaning of my post, you have committed a straw-man argument.
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.
It was totally fair and correct to call your response lazy and disingenuous because that is exactly what a straw man argument is.
Stating that this is an emotional issue for you was a leap, but you reciprocated that already so I'm covered.
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Re: This was a "straw-man" argument...
Aug 7, 2017, 11:50 AM
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keep telling yourself that you were not being unnecessarily rude to me.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I addressed this in my last post. You did not address mine.
Aug 7, 2017, 11:54 AM
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Again.
3 is a pattern.
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Re: I addressed this in my last post. You did not address mine.
Aug 7, 2017, 1:19 PM
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what is disingenuous is comparing Venezuela's economy to Russia and the US, or comparing the sincerity of trump campaign promises to that of sanders. If you want to have a polite debate I will be happy to do so on future threads, but I owe you nothing on this one.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Feels like an escape hatch. I think you know you
Aug 7, 2017, 1:55 PM
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used a straw man argument and you don't want to admit it. It's a pretty obvious example of straw man. I laid it out.
And I was comparing sanctions and energy prices between Venezuela and Russia, because you mentioned those factors as causal to Venezuela's current predicament. It was relevant to isolate the variable.
Oh, and I never compared the level of sincerity between Trump's campaign and Bernie's. Bernie is obviously a million times more genuine. But his genuine ideas are flawed and disastrous if implemented.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Re: Disingenuous response.
Aug 7, 2017, 2:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: Disingenuous response. ] |
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they created a dependency in the boom. the boom is over. that is what a welfare state will give you. people who are dependent of freebies, but there are no freebies.
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Legend [15749]
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Oculus Spirit [83118]
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Bernie's nutty.***
Aug 7, 2017, 11:11 AM
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All-In [31894]
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yep***
Aug 7, 2017, 11:12 AM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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he's the Ross Perot of the left***
Aug 7, 2017, 11:24 AM
[ in reply to Bernie's nutty.*** ] |
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Lot o points [155906]
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well, except the part where
Aug 7, 2017, 12:55 PM
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in hindsight, I don't see many areas where Ross was wrong with his predictions.
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Oculus Spirit [83118]
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What were his predictions?***
Aug 7, 2017, 1:32 PM
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Lot o points [155906]
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Multiples..........
Aug 7, 2017, 2:54 PM
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The exponential escalation of the national debt and deficit, the widening of the income gap in that scenario, the effects of entitlement spending on those items, and the effects of NAFTA on US manufacturing jobs.
I've seen some compelling arguments about why one of his platforms, a balanced budget, really isn't necessary, but it would also be hard to say he was wrong on the topic.
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CU Medallion [56073]
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I'm philosophically and politically opposed to socialism.
Aug 7, 2017, 12:53 PM
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I'm also not exactly plugged in to the intricacies of South American economics and I doubt anyone else around here is either.
But just because socialism is not currently working well in Venezuela isn't proof that it never works and Bernie's crazy.
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Lot o points [155906]
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ism's, in my opinion, are not good.
Aug 7, 2017, 12:58 PM
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A person should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, “I don’t believe in ‘Beatles’, I just believe in me.”
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CU Medallion [56073]
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I'm not European. I don't plan on being European.
Aug 7, 2017, 1:35 PM
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So who gives a crap if they're socialists?
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All-In [31894]
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Are there any real socialist countries around today?...
Aug 7, 2017, 1:27 PM
[ in reply to I'm philosophically and politically opposed to socialism. ] |
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or at least with socialist forms of economy? I sure can't think of any big ones.
Sweden is maybe the closest, but it surely isn't a purely planned economy.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The point of the OP isn't to prove that Bernie is crazy;
Aug 7, 2017, 1:50 PM
[ in reply to I'm philosophically and politically opposed to socialism. ] |
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it is to demonstrate that Bernie was extremely short-sighted and largely ignorant of some of the things he talks about, and his ideas about socialism are really no more advanced than the average Bernie enthusiast.
He declared Venezuela to be a place where the American Dream can be attained moreso than in the US. Venezuela was on the cusp of total economic failure. And social programs turned out to be unaffordable, the increase control that the government had to take, to become more socialist, made the problem impossible to diagnose and fix until it was too late. The populist political reaction has exacerbated things by destroying their currency.
It is a very strong case-study in the naïveté and destined failure of unrealistic and heavy socialism. Greece, Spain, Italy, USSR, etc etc etc...
Bernie appeals to emotions about fairness and anger at greed. It's not practical or grounded in reality. This example helps illustrate specifically why that is the case.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: The point of the OP isn't to prove that Bernie is crazy;
Aug 7, 2017, 3:24 PM
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In fairness to poor ole Bernie, he couldn't have possibly known that Chavez would go ape-shart and die. You can't just divorce a countries policies and their outcomes from it's leadership. 
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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speaking of short sighted
Aug 7, 2017, 3:54 PM
[ in reply to The point of the OP isn't to prove that Bernie is crazy; ] |
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Venezuela does not have access to central bank with the lending power of the federal reserve. they are 9k in debt per capita, with GDP of 12k per capita. We are in debt 60k per capita and GDP of 58k per capita. So technically, their economy is in better shape than ours, despite all of the social spending. the only difference is we have a credit card and they don't.
Go Figure?
http://countrymeters.info/en/Venezuela/economy
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Hall of Famer [24767]
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IMF and The World Bank aren't getting their cut-> Sanctions!***
Aug 9, 2017, 11:53 AM
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CU Guru [1482]
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Re: Bernie Sanders, in 2011, said this....
Aug 10, 2017, 7:53 AM
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> So you see kids, populism may be politically useful,
> and give some cash to poor people in the short-term
> but economically it is suicide in the long-term.
>
Have you read much about what Chavez and Maduro ACTUALLY did?
I wouldn't call nepotism involving drug lord nephews and inept sons "populism". Nor would I call a shutdown of the 4th estate "populsim." Nor would I call the laundering of public funds into personal offshore accounts, the amount of which would make Donald blush, "populism". I think it's at over $23 billion that can traced currently.
So you see kids, letting an unqualified con artist steer your country because he says a couple things you like may be fun for about five months, but pretty soon you realize he doesn't are about you and he's driving your nation into the crapper for his own gain.
Donald's pretty good at this kind of "populism", but he's got a long way to go before the Time Magazine for gangsters awards him "Person of the Year".
https://www.occrp.org/personoftheyear/2016/
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