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Legend [19567]
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Basketball recruiting
Mar 12, 2017, 4:12 PM
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The last two years have seen us bring in two high school players. Hudson and Spencer. At this point is there anyway to classify either of them except as misses?
Now I understand we've gone heavily with transfers these last two seasons, and I'm for that. But can we really afford to miss on the only high school guys we bring in? This gets to a point about recruiting I think we overlook, and that's evaluation.
Hudson was a 4 star guy, and Spencer a solid 3 star. But neither has been able to really contribute. Spencer couldn't sniff the court this year even when our only other true small forward in Grantham vanished the last 6 weeks of the season.
What makes us think our player evaluation is suddenly going to drastically improve? We aren't just not getting higher end recruits, we're not identifying and signing any under the radar guys that a school like Clemson must get.
We will not improve and succeed being unable to do that
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CU Medallion [67718]
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Re: Basketball recruiting
Mar 12, 2017, 4:23 PM
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Sitting behind Grantham does not bode well for his career. All Grantham did this year was regress.
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Legend [19567]
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Of all the disappointments this year
Mar 12, 2017, 4:27 PM
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Spencer may have been the biggest to me. Maybe he drastically improves this off season, but he looks like a complete whiff right now
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Agree. What would be considered Brownell strengths?
Mar 12, 2017, 4:34 PM
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Our identity once Coach Brownell gets his players in will be...what? After 7 years, those answers are still not obvious.
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Legend [19567]
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Whoever it is has to be able to spot under the radar talent
Mar 12, 2017, 4:40 PM
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Foster was the best we ever had at it. Nance, Billy Williams, the Grant's, Vinnie Hamilton. None of those guys were highly recruited. Cliff found his with Grayson Marshall and Elden. Barnes had Buckner and TMac. OP identified guys like Hammonds, Young, Grant and Smith.
Who has Brad really identified who became a really solid ACC player that fits that mold other than a KJ?
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All-In [48078]
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I think you nailed it. He can't recruit or evaluate talent****
Mar 12, 2017, 4:45 PM
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Orange Blooded [2081]
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Re: I think you nailed it. He can't recruit or evaluate talent****
Mar 12, 2017, 4:48 PM
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Tell Walt Deptula that!
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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110%er [7114]
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When you get to the pumpkin patch...
Mar 12, 2017, 9:54 PM
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tell Linus I said hello.
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: Whoever it is has to be able to spot under the radar talent
Mar 12, 2017, 4:53 PM
[ in reply to Whoever it is has to be able to spot under the radar talent ] |
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I remember Larry Nance. He was a heck of a player. Horace Grant and Elden Campbell led us to a regular season ACC title. Buckner was a great player. I'm sure the Brownell fan club will point out that this incoming class will be the best ever under Brownell. Time will tell.
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110%er [7114]
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Dale Davis...
Mar 12, 2017, 9:57 PM
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not Horace Grant. Horace was already in the NBA by the time we won the ACC regular season. That team was Campbell, Davis, Forrest, Cash and Howling. Best team in Clemson basketball history IMO.
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Legend [19567]
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Yep-Tyson, David Young off the bench
Mar 12, 2017, 10:00 PM
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Elden and Dale were monsters inside. The biggest strength Cliff had was recruiting and developing big men
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All-In [27368]
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Re: Whoever it is has to be able to spot under the radar talent
Mar 12, 2017, 4:57 PM
[ in reply to Whoever it is has to be able to spot under the radar talent ] |
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Nothing wrong with the way Mitchell, Reed and Holmes play. Devoe has improved. Hopefully we can get a big guy to play under the basket. That is what hurt us this year. I really expect Grantham to improve in the off season. Robertin, I'm not sure about. I have heard good things about Oliver but have never seen him play.
I can see number 50 being a star player. Can't you?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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CU Medallion [58378]
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Devoe's improvement has been in his defense and adjusting
Mar 12, 2017, 5:14 PM
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to the speed of the game, which is good. However, he was brought here with the hope of him being that 3-point shooter we so desperately needed at the time, and to score from the back court, and he has shown very little improvement there and has been so inconsistent as to be fairly ineffective.
Grantham is the biggest disappointment, and you're right, he has clearly and very obviously regressed.
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Orange Blooded [3381]
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Re: Devoe hasn't improved. Grantham has regressed.
Mar 12, 2017, 9:38 PM
[ in reply to Devoe hasn't improved. Grantham has regressed. ] |
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Both Devoe and Grantham averaged about one FT per game playing 24 minutes or more. Seems to indicate an overall lack of efficient offensive capability. I may be wrong, and hope I will be, but don't think it will change significantly next year which will likely mean no NCAAT. As was the case this season, can't count on freshmen to come in and be difference makers.
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Legend [19567]
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Mitchell and Thomas were top 100 recruits
Mar 12, 2017, 6:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Whoever it is has to be able to spot under the radar talent ] |
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out of high school. Reed was a nobody who went to a mid major and proved himself. A big key for us is spotting guys like Reed in high school, which we haven't been able to do. He's exactly the type under the radar recruit I'm speaking of. The kind of guy Clemson must find from time to time as they won't always transfer to you.
Next years team will have some building blocks with those three. Grantham is a complete mystery at this point as his confidence is clearly in the tank. I think Devoe is what he is, and guys like Hudson and Spencer complete unknowns.
That leaves Robertin who is just a warm body, Skara who was a reserve at Valpo, and the four incoming freshmen.
Simms and Williams will play as we have little depth up front. Oliver has the reputation of a good shooter who is not an elite athlete. Trapp is an athlete but extremely raw.
Unless a guy like Grantham suddenly finds himself, or 1-2 of the freshmen turn out to be real impact guys, I just don't see a better team next year.
We may see 1-2 transfer out and maybe add a grad transfer, but the roster basically is set. I just don't see enough there to warrant another year from Brad after next year, meaning we're simply delaying the inevitable.
To me, better to start fresh with a new coach and new energy this off season rather than wait another year
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CU Medallion [58378]
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I agree, that's probably where he must start, but at some
Mar 12, 2017, 5:01 PM
[ in reply to Whoever it is has to be able to spot under the radar talent ] |
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point, say by year 2 or 3, he's got to start upgrading the talent via recruiting and get to a point where he doesn't rely totally on the diamond-in-the-rough.
I understand all too well that the comparison to our football program is flawed, but we do need a Dabo type of coach who can get recruits excited about what Clemson does have to offer and make them believe they can win big here, in spite of our history, or lack thereof. He has to be able to sell 2 things: Clemson University, and a new, exciting direction for Clemson basketball.
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CU Guru [1133]
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We have to try selling ourselves better to recruits.
Mar 12, 2017, 6:36 PM
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Have u seen our assistant coaches. They are all old. It's time we get someone energetic and young in there who the players can relate to and trust/bond with. That's what's hurting us. Brownell went to low level schools to get assistants instead. If I was coach I would involve dabo and Clements into my recruiting window. Show them everyone cares about basketball and a plan is in place. Sell them on hope like dabo did. Show them you are 1-2 shots at the buzzer away from being one of the conferences top 4 teams. Show them you have sent players to the NBA! Show them you let graduation rate. I would be throwing it on them thick! But like dabo says it starts with recruiting. He said if the players don't progress or if they missed on them it's our fault as coaches during evaluation. That means it's BRAD's fault either way. Something has to change bc I'm tired of medeocre basketball. I'm ready to see little John packed again and students lined up across the street ready to fill the sections like it was when I went there. It can be done
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Legend [19567]
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I think some staff turnover may be in order
Mar 12, 2017, 6:43 PM
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I have no idea why #### Bender was brought back other than Brad knows him long term. He certainly couldn't replace Riley as a recruiter. Smith is probably the best recruiter on staff right now. Winecki has been with Brad forever.
But if I'm DRad, I may be asking for some changes. That also could lead Brad to look elsewhere.
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CU Guru [1133]
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Legend [19567]
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Who is Oh?***
Mar 12, 2017, 6:49 PM
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Legend [19567]
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All-In [27368]
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Re: Agree. What would be considered Brownell strengths?
Mar 12, 2017, 4:49 PM
[ in reply to Agree. What would be considered Brownell strengths? ] |
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I hope some big time player took in the games at Barkley Center and decided CLEMSON might be the place for him. Or perhaps BB stumbled on a unknown recruit while in the big city. Without question we need to upgrade the recruiting and that has to be a real challenge for any coach. Every good kid from SC seems to end up in Chapel Hill and that hurts because the ole' Palmetto State doesn't have that many!
Just think what Felton or Johnson or the kid they have now could have done for CLEMSON basketball. Of course, the North State football teams would be a lot better if the Tigers would stay away! There are two Z's out there we really need. One in Spartanburg and one in Lumberton!
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CU Guru [1806]
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CU Medallion [58378]
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Look at the 4-star recruits Brownell has signed:
Mar 12, 2017, 4:49 PM
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Bernard Sullivan - 4 stars from Scout and Rivals (#70 player overall).
Jaron Blossomgame - 4 stars from ESPN.
Dante Grantham - 4-stars from Scout, Rivals (#66 overall), and 247 (#63 overall).
Legend Robertin - 4 stars by ESPN (#17 center)
Ty Hudson - 4 stars by ESPN and Scout (#87 overall)
With the exception of Blossomgame, who has regressed this year, the others were either total misses, or were either very slow to develop, or not developed whatsoever.
Next year we do have 2 4-stars coming in, AJ Oliver, who is rated as high as the #36 shooting guard in the country, and Amir Simms, rated as high as #88 overall. At best, this is a baby step at a point where it's very reasonable to expect more. On the other hand, there is very good reason to suspect that one or both will be misses or go undeveloped as history has proven.
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Legend [19567]
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You're going to have misses
Mar 12, 2017, 5:07 PM
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but at a school like Clemson, you have to find guys the big boys look past. It's what schools like Butler, Gonzaga, even a Davidson have done for years.
When you hire a mid major guy it's one of the things you are counting on as they normally aren't recruiting those 4-5 stars. It's all about evaluation and development at that level. For whatever reason that hasn't translated for Brad. Those guys wind up being your glue guys. We really haven't had any of those types in his tenure.
We've had projects who have semi developed like Nnoko and Djitte. Guys who were just out classed talent wise and miscast due to a lack of surrounding talent like Hall and Roper.
But how much better could we have been with some 2-3 stars like Stitt, Hammonds, Grant, Young or Tanner Smith? And those are just guys OP brought in
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Thought Nnoko had some talent that was never fully developed
Mar 12, 2017, 5:14 PM
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He looked like he had NBA potential by year 2, if he continued his rate of progression. He didn't unfortunately. Over his last two years, he was prone to foolish fouls. That shouldn't happen for a junior and a senior. Not sure why he was not coached out of that. Perhaps it had to do with the level of practice competition. It seems to be a common problem for our big men these last few years.
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Legend [19567]
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With he and Djitte neither had much basketball
Mar 12, 2017, 5:19 PM
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experience coming to Clemson. Same with Robertin now. They lack the instincts that come from playing the game your whole life.
Now Thomas will be a different story. Top 50 recruit who grew up with the game. He gets a bit of a pass from me for his stupid fouls this year as experience wise he's still a freshman. But he should be able to progress beyond that
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: With he and Djitte neither had much basketball
Mar 12, 2017, 5:23 PM
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Thomas has potential.
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CU Medallion [58378]
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Agreed. If he develops, he's easily an All-ACC player.***
Mar 12, 2017, 5:27 PM
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CU Medallion [58378]
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I don't disagree, I was just pointing out that he has
Mar 12, 2017, 5:26 PM
[ in reply to You're going to have misses ] |
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missed on all but one of his 4-star recruits. He's 1-for-5, and you can't be wrong 80% of the time!
I totally agree that we miss the Tanner Smiths and the Stitts and the Grants - absolutely. When you are wrong 80% of the time on the sure-things, then you'd better be turning a few 2 and 3-stars into real stars.
I know full well that no coach is gonna come in here and start signing McDonald's All-Americans, and I don't expect anything near that. My point is that while we absolutely must rely on identifying under-the-radar types, at least initially, like Foster and Ellis and Barnes and Purnell, the ultimate goal is to do better than any of those guys, which would mean attracting better talent at some point. I truly believe the right coach could do that at Clemson.
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Legend [19567]
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You need elite guys, whether they are
Mar 12, 2017, 5:38 PM
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elite recruits or guys you identify and develop. I just think Clemson is a little different in that we'll always need those under the radar guys to have consistent success. Notre Dame is a great example. They get their share of highly rated recruits, but they also identify guys who fit their system and come in and produce. Pitt did it for years. There is a middle ground that we must somehow find
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CU Medallion [58378]
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Agree - that's what I'm saying. We'll never recruit head
Mar 12, 2017, 6:26 PM
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to head with UNC and Dook and Louisville, BUT there is a level of recruiting between that and where we have traditionally been, even in the good years under Foster/Ellis/Barnes/Purnell.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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110%er [5912]
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William***
Mar 12, 2017, 7:53 PM
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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My bad.***
Mar 12, 2017, 8:47 PM
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CU Medallion [58378]
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Legend [19567]
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Depends on the service
Mar 13, 2017, 12:33 PM
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All three of our four stars are also rated as three stars by other recruiting services. Regardless, it's still a class with some potential
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CU Medallion [58378]
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What I'm saying is that I don't see any that have William
Mar 13, 2017, 12:41 PM
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with 4-stars.
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Basketball recruiting
Mar 12, 2017, 6:15 PM
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From what I am reading, bb has to get the boot. Understanding what we get may be a shyatt but if that's the case, then drad ain't doing his job on eval.
I hate it, but it's time to at least try with something else. I ask the keep bb crowd, how long do you keep him? 1 2 3 years? It's past time to get serious about bball.
We found a barnes before we can find another one.
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CU Guru [1133]
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Re: Basketball recruiting
Mar 12, 2017, 6:41 PM
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Have u seen our assistant coaches. They are all old. It's time we get someone energetic and young in there who the players can relate to and trust/bond with. That's what's hurting us. Brownell went to low level schools to get assistants instead. If I was coach I would involve dabo and Clements into my recruiting window. Show them everyone cares about basketball and a plan is in place. Sell them on hope like dabo did. Show them you are 1-2 shots at the buzzer away from being one of the conferences top 4 teams. Show them you have sent players to the NBA! Show them your high graduation rate. I would be throwing it on them thick! But like dabo says it starts with recruiting. He said if the players don't progress or if they missed on them it's our fault as coaches during evaluation. That means it's BRAD's fault either way. Something has to change bc I'm tired of medeocre basketball. I'm ready to see little John packed again and students lined up across the street ready to fill the sections like it was when I went there. It can be done
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: Basketball recruiting
Mar 12, 2017, 6:43 PM
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Good ideas!
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Walk-On [146]
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Re: Basketball recruiting
Mar 12, 2017, 7:42 PM
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Class of '66. Grew up in LIBERTY, lived in (OK my parents lived) in Rome , GA after I graduated from high school. Bill Foster was the coach at Shorter College in Rome during those years. I didn't know anybody there so I went to watch Shorter play basketball during the Christmas holidays. His guards were Joe Kingery and Dwight Rainey. Foster could coach but he could also recruit. As coach Howard responded when asked if coaching or players were more important, "Boy, no matter how well you train 'em, you will never win the Kentucky Derby with a mule." As my grandkids would respond "Duh!"
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110%er [8095]
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None of the recruits this year are transfers. 3 are 4 stars
Mar 12, 2017, 7:50 PM
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I'd say that is pretty good..
Any complaints about that? Didn't think so.
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110%er [5912]
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Wrong
Mar 12, 2017, 7:54 PM
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Skara is a transfer.
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Legend [19567]
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And right now all they have are stars
Mar 12, 2017, 7:58 PM
[ in reply to None of the recruits this year are transfers. 3 are 4 stars ] |
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we have no idea if they'll pan out. That's not a slam on what is considered a top 40 class that I do think has promise, but we have no idea what we have until they are here.
Hopefully all will be here for the first session of summer school which would make all of them eligible for the foreign trip this summer. Would be a big leg up in integrating them with the team.
For Brad's and Clemson's sake, we need a few of these guys to be standouts
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CU Medallion [58378]
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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To expect major contributions from our incoming freshman class is a big reach.
Mar 12, 2017, 8:08 PM
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I've watched the two instate guys live, and I've watched the two others on film. Barring some miracle, I just don't see them making a major impact next season. Brownell rarely even plays freshmen anyway. I think they all have the potential to be productive players before they graduate though....with a new coaching staff.
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Legend [19567]
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The two bigs are going to have to play due to.
Mar 12, 2017, 8:14 PM
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our lack of depth, ready or not. I like William and his athleticism as a shot blocker, but he's raw offensively. Sims has a little more bulk.
Barring some transfers I can't see where Oliver or Trapp get major minutes as they are 3rd string going in it would appear. Oliver can shoot it, but Spencer was supposed to be able to as well, and we saw how that worked out. I love Trapp's length and athleticism but he should redshirt if the roster remains as is. Just to raw
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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Re: The two bigs are going to have to play due to.
Mar 12, 2017, 8:39 PM
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Agree with your assessment 100%. The two freshman bigs may have to play out of necessity, but it will be a baptism by fire.
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: The two bigs are going to have to play due to.
Mar 12, 2017, 8:48 PM
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It's asking a lot for true freshmen to come in and play starting roles in the ACC. Add to that you have a fractured fanbase that demands big improvement from the coach or be fired.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Legend [19567]
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Spencer definitely should have redshirted
Mar 12, 2017, 9:08 PM
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as little as he played this year. Wasted year. The only guy I remember red shirting was JB and that was due to the broken leg.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Agree.***
Mar 12, 2017, 9:22 PM
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Orange Blooded [3381]
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Re: Spencer definitely should have redshirted
Mar 12, 2017, 9:53 PM
[ in reply to Spencer definitely should have redshirted ] |
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Really don't understand why Spenser wasn't redshirted. Played a total of 28 minutes. Wouldn't be surprised if he transfers.
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Legend [19567]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17277
Joined: 8/18/05
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Yhat he couldn't play the way Grantham struggled
Mar 12, 2017, 9:58 PM
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speaks volumes
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