|
Replies: 31
| visibility 357
|
Hall of Famer [24872]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14790
Joined: 10/12/08
|
|
|
|
 |
Heisman Winner [111421]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 73686
Joined: 9/10/03
|
Re: our degraded culture***
Mar 12, 2014, 8:45 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
Perfect summary.***
Mar 12, 2014, 8:55 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Funny. Point. But serious question: do you think that
Mar 12, 2014, 9:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: our degraded culture*** ] |
|
culture is neutral?
Are some culture's values not more productive and stable than those of others? Are our values not shifting to less productive and less stable?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [111421]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 73686
Joined: 9/10/03
|
Re: Funny. Point. But serious question: do you think that
Mar 12, 2014, 11:56 PM
|
|
fossil fuel and technology allow us to live in the peak of human productivity, not our morality.
Our culture has much bigger problems than girls ####### their way through school. And I find it laughable, to the point of the OP, to suggest that this is some new phenomenon. Prostitution is the worlds oldest profession.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6238]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7617
Joined: 11/21/99
|
###### gonna #####****
Mar 12, 2014, 8:53 PM
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
The only real point that I agree with is...
Mar 12, 2014, 8:54 PM
|
|
that #### is teaching the wrong kind of sex to the inexperienced. (Even then, communication is the important aspect as some women are all for the type of sex seen in ####--and some men aren't)
Her whole point can be broken down to, "young people like sex." The same argument she's espousing is the same thing they said about Playboys which she ironically seems to be advocating we return to. Someone should tell her that Playboy objectifies women and treats them as objects just as much as ####.
This Duke student may not realize the long-term ramifications of doing #### (finding a job afterward will probably be a problem), but it won't be the first time a young person made a horrible mistake that cost them in the long-term.
I always wonder why the older generation has no ability to see the ridiculousness of their arguments when wishing for a return to the "good ol' days."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [111421]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 73686
Joined: 9/10/03
|
Re: The only real point that I agree with is...
Mar 12, 2014, 9:06 PM
|
|
you can also look at it under the lens that she would not have had to resort to this had the Reaganites not encouraged states to run deficits by cutting taxes. For 40 years in this country we able to educate the next generation of students without it bankrupting a middle class family.
JYT will tell you about the good old days when a poor kid like himself was able to pull himself up the boots straps and get a good education, and I am happy that he was able to do that. But it takes a huge set of balls to criticize the choices kids have to makes these days when it was his generation that pulled the ladder up behind them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Jane you ignorant slut. Reagan did not cause freshmen to
Mar 12, 2014, 9:43 PM
|
|
go into ####. Please tell me you did not just say that.
And no generation has pulled up any ladders. One could just as easily make the case that easy govt money to colleges has simply raised tuitions to where its more difficult to work one's way through. If even that is true: my daughter just did it.
And if we're talking deficits...oh, forget it. Will just remind that trillion is, like, more that billion.
No, I am not picking a fight. Not a real fight. I like your posts. So flame away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Lets see if I got what you are saying. In 1965 people
Mar 12, 2014, 9:48 PM
[ in reply to The only real point that I agree with is... ] |
|
said, "This Playboy thing is not as cool as it looks. Will lead nowhere good."
Now a freshman says her doing hard core #### is no biggie. An observer says, "And this is not Playboy."
To which you say, "They said the same thing about Playboy."
See, I think that was the author's point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
She's not making the point that Playboy led to this ####
Mar 12, 2014, 10:16 PM
|
|
She's saying that this #### is reflective of the value system of an entire generation. That's a ridiculous point to make, alone. Yet, the subject matter she's extrapolating from is indicative not of THIS generation, but EVERY generation. She's trying to argue that HER generation was somehow more pure and traditional in their youth than today's youth. That's ridiculous. The desires and actions of youth have pretty much been the same forever. Change this freshmen doing #### on the internet to posing for playboy and the argument is the same.
Her argument about how #### influences the youth is a good one and I have no problems with addressing it. But this self-righteous attitude about generations is ridiculous and needs to be curbed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34536]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41381
Joined: 4/20/01
|
nope, she's just looking for excuses
Mar 12, 2014, 10:25 PM
|
|
for doing ####...it's that simple.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
The older lady that wrote the article?***
Mar 12, 2014, 11:12 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Is it actually ridiculous? It does happen. There is the
Mar 12, 2014, 10:42 PM
[ in reply to She's not making the point that Playboy led to this #### ] |
|
often referred to Roman Empire, which was about declining values. That pattern can be found in many cultures, in many examples besides national cultures. Books have been written about the fact that it is a pattern.
To reject a judgement based on one's actions is almost universal. See a pattern of behavior, point it out, refer to an underlying character flaw, and 9 times out of 10 the response is, "Dont judge me. You dont know me. You cant draw that conclusion. People have always said that." Any parent of a 5 year old knows how natural that reaction is; healthy cultures grow out of it and declining ones do not.
Yes, we do know. Yes, conclusions can be drawn from behavior. Yes, people have always said that, and they were right; it just takes a while.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
Roman empire didn't fall because the youth had sex
Mar 12, 2014, 11:10 PM
|
|
or liked sex. Militarily, Economically, and Politically Rome fell. Not because of some moral failing as I understand it.
Conclusions about an entire generation can not be drawn from one individual or individuals behavior. So, again this lady broadening her argument to encapsulate an entire generation is stupid.
If you want to broaden the argument, instead argue why sex is bad in our culture? Why has our country developed a phobia around nudity and sex? I often wonder if the stigma of sex placed by society is actually worse for society than the act itself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Economic and political failings spring from what?
Mar 12, 2014, 11:28 PM
|
|
We have developed a phobia? What phobia, and what development?
A person makes an observation that a freshman girl - and not from NW Tri County Central State but Duke, and not admitting it but justufying it in adolescent fashion - might be a tip of an iceburg, and that is a phobia?
Is this girl outside the norm? Of course. The author never said oherwise. But when at entire bell curve moves, the edges move with it. It is very legitimate to observe an edge when it is obviously beyond the previous edge - they are easier to see - and surmise that the norm has likely moved with it.
If a Jr High had no heroin addicts 10 years ago, and now a principle notices 3, he dang sell better assume something cultural is going on. And in doing so he is not being judgemental about the new crop of 12 hears olds, and he is not being drugaphobic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
Ah, I see the point you are making with Rome...
Mar 12, 2014, 11:55 PM
|
|
it's the overall degradation of morals, not specifically sexual degradation (even this is debatable in terms of being the cause of Rome falling). However, That's not the argument this article is writing about, because if it was then she would be placing that blame firmly on herself, and her generation. They are the ones that have created the world we are living in. (Heck, you could extend that to the sexual morals argument we're having. The Duke freshman grew up in the world her parent's generation built for her. Why does she and for some reason her entire generation get the blame for how the world is now? Ridiculous.)
--The author doesn't say this girl is out of the norm, she's basically saying she IS the norm of her entire generation and how they view sex. That's the problem.
--To use the Bell curve example: She'd be placed with all the girls that posed for playboy while in college, or strip to pay for college, or are escorts. All of these things have been around much longer than internet ####. She's not doing anything new. That's my point.
--A Jr High has 10 LSD addicts. A generation later they have 10 crack addicts. A generation later they have 10 heroin addicts. Has anything changed other than the drug of choice? That's what's going on. This lady is arguing that drugs weren't a problem at her school but are now. That make sense?
--The phobia I'm talking about is what is the actual harm done to someone who sees a naked body on tv/movies? Not even pornographic, just nude? What are we protecting society from? To extend it to #### though, let's say this Duke freshmen did #### and never fell into drugs or had a stigma attached to her by society that kept her from getting a job later on, would there actually be any harm caused to her or society?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
I will absolutely agree with you on at least one thing,
Mar 13, 2014, 12:20 AM
|
|
and probalbly most of what else you just said: whatever cultural failings are represented by this girl are not the ones of her generation. You are very right about that.
Nor do I think it is the moral relativism that began with the boomers. The generation previous to that one, The Greatest Generatkon, was a moralistic culture, and those will produce, imo, what we see today. You have heard the saying, "A rules oriented environment produced two kinds of people, legalists and rebels."
No doubt we are becoming composed of those two. But all that is anonther long discussion.
But you are therefore also right that if there is something more important than morals and rules we would be determining what is harrmful obscenity vs something else.
In message boards like theae we dont really get to things that, and instead defend narrow positions. I expect you and I agree on more than we admit to here. 
All in fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
I enjoy the conversation. I get a kick out this stuff
Mar 13, 2014, 12:30 AM
|
|
I will say, I don't want to say that any one generation is at fault for anything. That's what ticked me off about that author's argument. She's generalizing about an entire generation and its supposed failings. My bringing up her generation was more to show the disinterest/dislike I had for her argument.
Agree with your last sentence--All in fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Not only that, there is really no such thing as a generation
Mar 13, 2014, 12:39 AM
|
|
Last I looked, time moves day by day, and new little darlings are born in everyone of them. Maybe cultural shifts are noticed, or are measurable, only after a certain amount of shift, so that would give rise to artificial starting and ending points. But actually its a seamless continuum. Maybe. I think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24872]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14790
Joined: 10/12/08
|
Re: She's not making the point that Playboy led to this ####
Mar 12, 2014, 11:19 PM
[ in reply to She's not making the point that Playboy led to this #### ] |
|
Are you explaining this cultural degradation with Moral Relativism?
I don't think not embracing the moral decay of a nation is being "self-righteous". "But this self-righteous attitude about generations is ridiculous and needs to be curbed".
So, we are to #### about any contrasts between generational morality and ethics?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
She needs to prove that moral decay.
Mar 12, 2014, 11:34 PM
|
|
I'm saying it's not decaying or at least the attitudes, beliefs, and desires of one generation (youth) have held pretty consistent. Certainly from this lady's generation to the present.
What contrast(s) is she making? The underlying argument is the same--Young people like sex. That's not a contrast to her generation or any generation before hers. That's a similarity. She seems confused.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24872]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14790
Joined: 10/12/08
|
Re: She needs to prove that moral decay.
Mar 12, 2014, 11:56 PM
|
|
So, if young people have always liked sex, and there has been no degradation of sexual mores or morality from one generation to the next, then we are just imagining that all the fornication our young people are having, is just the same as it was a few hundred years ago, or a few thousand yrs. ago when having sex before marriage was taboo and no young girl of freshman college age would be engaged in #### movie making and justifying it by saying it was a better job than being a waitress.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
Yes, young people never had sex out of wedlock before now
Mar 13, 2014, 12:09 AM
|
|
and clearly now every girl is paying for school by being in ####.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Okay, whaf would be evidence to you?
Mar 13, 2014, 12:05 AM
[ in reply to She needs to prove that moral decay. ] |
|
The author's point, I think, was that the student's blasé response and the openess with which this was out there comes from something, that her behavior might be on the edge but that her underlying attitudes about reflect a cultural shift. That is not by any means an unreasonable discussion.
To demand proof at this stage is a disconnect, a confused response. We could have no observations about anything by that standard. She made a reasonable observation, for which there are reasonable rebuttals. From those conversations come the sociological studies.
But to just claim, "Thats not fair!" sounds like the very culture the author was surmising led to this. She has a very valid point. A valid rebuttal is required, not indignation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30147
Joined: 9/9/06
|
Oh, come on with that.
Mar 13, 2014, 12:23 AM
|
|
She's extrapolating from one girl's reason for doing #### an entire generation's moral shift from some supposed moralistic, puritanical utopia of her youth to an immoral, hedonistic dystopia of today's youth. That's the definition of unreasonable and confused.
It's not unrealistic to ask her to back up her argument with something, ANYTHING to support her argument. I have to think there are thousands of sociological studies done on this topic in the last few years (let alone the last 100) so either she's too lazy to look them up or she doesn't care. She wants to believe that her generation was superior and idealistic, we all do. But our belief is not enough to support an argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [53716]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 43532
Joined: 11/17/03
|
I would say that Debbie Wasserman Shultz, after, no , while
Mar 13, 2014, 7:16 AM
[ in reply to She needs to prove that moral decay. ] |
|
being caught in an out right lie on national television, and stating,"It does not matter. It..does..not.. matter Andnerson",( eerily similar to another Democratic icon stating,"What does it matter now?") is indicative of a decay in our nations morals. When the head Democrat says lying does not matter, and she is still the head Democrat, that is a movement of the bell curve. In fact, the Democratic leadership in this country has brought lying to heights never seen before in this country. And in 5,4,3,2,1......it will be defended.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11208]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 18394
Joined: 2/2/03
|
5, 4, 3, 2, 1....ignored.
Mar 13, 2014, 2:23 PM
|
|
That may be worse than an attempt to defend it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [53716]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 43532
Joined: 11/17/03
|
Yep.***
Mar 13, 2014, 6:40 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13956
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Adultery has been around as long as, well, adultery.
Mar 12, 2014, 11:47 PM
[ in reply to Re: She's not making the point that Playboy led to this #### ] |
|
Got it.
Mrs and I move into a new condo building. All are married. Half the people are sleeping around with the other half. It is the culture, and it defines every party, every meeting, every casual encounter in the parking lot. You have to careful who you have over for beers. I say, "This sucks. You cant breathe in this place."
Someone on this board would say, "Oh, people been doing that forever. You are sexaphobic." Alrighty then.
David doing the wild thing with Bathsheba was not primarily about the sex, bad as that was, leading to murder and whatnot. No, it began, and came from, "In the days when kings went to war" David sent flunky off to do the hard work he used to do, because he had gotten too big for that and thought he deserved to stay back where life was easy.
It was a character failing, pure and simple. Anyone who doesnt read the interwebs and see the same thing happening better have $5 mil in Switzerland.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26685]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15950
Joined: 4/12/07
|
I'd like to think that she did it for my alone time benefit.
Mar 13, 2014, 8:46 AM
|
|
And for that I hold her in high regard and thank her for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 31
| visibility 357
|
|
|
50
