|
Replies: 61
| visibility 5372
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Does anyone find it strange
22
22
Nov 22, 2024, 11:40 AM
|
|
That most of the folks complaining about Dabo’s salary don’t even pay to post on Tnet? I find it laughable. Dabo is worth every penny and more. We are blessed to have him and the program he has developed at Clemson.
Right now we are going through dark times winning only 10 or 11 games per year, and a really down year in 2023 winning 9, and I know being ranked in the top 15 every year is also a downer. (Sarcasm alert for that paragraph.)
But good times will return. We just need to navigate this NIL/portal era until the dust settles.
|
|
|
|
 |
Game Changer [1923]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
8
8
Nov 22, 2024, 11:54 AM
|
|
I’m one who hasn’t paid to post. However, was in IPTAY for over 40 years until hard times came visiting. I’m also one who supports Dabo completely. I’m all in
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [32387]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 35347
Joined: 2003
|
to be a member of IPTAy you only need to donate $60 which
2
Nov 22, 2024, 12:12 PM
|
|
can be split into at least 2 payments (85% and 15%).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
4
Nov 22, 2024, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Does anyone find it strange ] |
|
Well, you donated to the program, so that qualifies as someone who puts his money where his mouth is. Thanks for supporting the Tigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gridiron Giant [15774]
TigerPulse: 100%
50
Posts: 16732
Joined: 2015
|
So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway...
1
16
16
Nov 22, 2024, 12:04 PM
|
|
I believe someone is worth what someone is willing to pay them. If those in charge of negotiating Dabo's salary believe he is worth 11M then he is worth 11M.
But don't let that fact or beating up 10 cupcakes a year form an overall opinion of a situation. The fact is that we have serious coaching issues on both sides of the ball, and special teams.
1. Louisville's recruits are usually ranked in the 40 to 50 range, and they owned us.
2. Our OL was owned by just about every school we played the past few years (Duke whipped us).
3. We have walk-ons playing OL, why?
4. When we need 1 yard, we bring in defensive linemen to block against teams like NC State. Sad.
5. We had a defensive lineman hurt and our FG protection fell apart. Also sad.
6. We have a RB playing at about 50% and 8 others sitting on the bench. Why?
7. We have one of the worst punters in 1A for years with a stud sitting on the bench. Dabo's friends.
8. Moore and Wesco sat on the bench against UGA. That isn't a coach that is putting the best players on the field for whatever reason.
These are coaching issues. Whether those issues are development, recruiting, roster management, inexperience, etc. your guess is as good as mine. But when I see teams like Louisville own us; it's disheartening on many levels. Mainly because it is not a one-off where we had a ton of turnovers etc.; we just look liked we didn't know how to play football. Period. I think Ruke is a good hire, but it may take him forever to get the personnel he needs based on our recruiting stance.
One lucky play against Pitt or we would have 3 losses; and I say lucky because look at our rushing yds in that game. That was luck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway...
5
5
Nov 22, 2024, 12:20 PM
|
|
I have said myself that right now we are not a well coached team. Our offensive and defensive game plans sometimes are puzzling. We don’t make in game adjustments sometimes. Our special teams are bottom 10 if not bottom 5 in the country.
But I’m not going to say Dabo has not earned his salary, and I’m certainly not going to call for his dismissal as some ignoramuses on here have said. He’s going to fix things. He’s already started, just moving in a stepwise fashion that is not as fast as some people want. He’s doing his best to navigate choppy waters right now. Give him some space.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46625]
TigerPulse: 78%
58
Posts: 34853
Joined: 2003
|
We have underachieved four years in a row.
2
2
Nov 22, 2024, 2:50 PM
|
|
I keep seeing these assurances that “Dabo will fix this,” but I’m not seeing any evidence of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [21637]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
|
Re: We have underachieved four years in a row.
Nov 22, 2024, 3:01 PM
|
|
😭
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7978]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46625]
TigerPulse: 78%
58
Posts: 34853
Joined: 2003
|
I am watching. Four years and counting.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 6:49 PM
|
|
Clemson football, doing less with more since 2020.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: We have underachieved four years in a row.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 6:32 PM
[ in reply to We have underachieved four years in a row. ] |
|
Past is prologue. He took us from the TB years of mediocrity (and TB is a friend) to 2 national titles. He can do it again. I would ask what Brad has done in comparison in his 14 years, but I’m above that. And I don’t want to be a troll. It’s contagious.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46625]
TigerPulse: 78%
58
Posts: 34853
Joined: 2003
|
I believe Dabo can do it again also.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 6:48 PM
|
|
But he won’t as long as he maintains the hubris, bad coaching hires, lack of transfer usage, and lukewarm support of NIL.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: I believe Dabo can do it again also.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 7:08 PM
|
|
Well, I think he made a tough decision to fire Streeter. Tough for Dabo. It was well deserved after blowing the SC game at home. We had 195 yards rushing in the first half, but only ran 5 times iirc in the second half. Why? They couldn’t stop it, but he treated DJ as if he were Joe Montana. It wasn’t just that game, but it was the last straw.
Garrett Riley seemed to be a good hire at the time. I thought so. But his offense is unimaginative, predictable, and easy to plan against. He doesn’t often make good or timely in game adjustments. He shows lack of experience.
Wes Godwin is a great analyst, but I’m not sure he’s a wartime consigliere in tough games. Maybe it’s all the injuries, but I have pulled back in my confidence in him until he steps up and gives us a big win.
No one should argue that Dabo hasn’t made some great hires at position coaches, but we could use a couple more.
With all that, we are still a top 20 team or better even during this down stretch. We are not national title contenders or elite right now, but he has shown that he can get us to the mountain top. I’ll stick with him.
Or we could do like LSU and others have done, bring in new coaches all around, and roll the dice. You want that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46625]
TigerPulse: 78%
58
Posts: 34853
Joined: 2003
|
No, I dont want to change coaches.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 11:33 PM
|
|
I want Dabo to adapt. I want him to stop putting such value on being different to the point that it’s inferior. Uniqueness is good if it means doing something better. Being different just to be different and stand out can backfire, and I think we’ve seen that recently with our program.
Dabo thought we were successful because of love and good people, when in reality we were successful because we had elite players and coaches. Sure, having high character people matters, but there have been plenty of high character coaches who didn’t win enough. Ken Hatfield rings a bell.
After our monumental success, Dabo thought he could hire nice guys he liked, and given the right culture, keep us elite. It turns out that wasn’t enough. I think/hope he is starting to see that coaching acumen and experience matter, which is why he hired Riley, Luke, Eason, etc. I still think something is wrong within the staff, but at least Dabo is trying.
Which is why I don’t buy it when people assure us that Dabo will fix it. If he knew how, we wouldn’t be spinning our wheels for the last four years. Give him credit for trying, but he hasn’t shown any indication that he can get us back to elite status in this current era of football.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Time Great [89438]
TigerPulse: 100%
63
Posts: 24763
Joined: 2006
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
24
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [21008]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
Posts: 13812
Joined: 1995
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
24
|
Re: So is his plan having recruiting classes of 5 a year and not using the...
Nov 23, 2024, 8:11 AM
|
|
What years did we only have 5 recruits?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [37957]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 10499
Joined: 2015
|
Re: So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway...
6
6
Nov 22, 2024, 12:46 PM
[ in reply to So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway... ] |
|
We are not getting the studs. The studs make coaches look like they know what they are doing.
Some on here would have won a few games with Saban’s roster. I am not saying he was not a great coach but good players accentuate that as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7489]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
|
Re: So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway...
1
Nov 22, 2024, 3:04 PM
|
|
Coaches make a difference too. Not having a dedicated special teams coach for one is ludicrous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway...
2
Nov 22, 2024, 6:49 PM
|
|
Absolutely! I’ve been calling for a dedicated special teams coach for a long time. Good high school teams have better special teams than we have.
It’s a big part of the game that often goes ignored for some strange reason. Blocked punts and field goals allow the opponent to score easily. Blocked FG’s can be a 10 point turnaround in a matter of seconds.
Poor punting, poor decisions about fielding (or not fielding) or fair catching punts leads to poor field position. I haven’t checked stats, but I’ll bet our average starting field position is WAY worse than our opponents’ this year. That puts pressure on both the offense and defense.
What bothers me is that Shane Beamer was an excellent special teams coach. I can promise you he will not ignore that phase of the game against us. We need to be ready.
Message was edited by: tigerdan75®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [229]
TigerPulse: 100%
13
|
Re: So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway...
Nov 23, 2024, 8:24 AM
[ in reply to Re: So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway... ] |
|
100% accurate it’s the talent drop off. We’d think we have an amazing staff if the talent was still up there like the playoff teams. Just look at the coots they were shocked they kept their awful DC. Now they think he’s amazing, he’s the same awful coach but when you can terrorize a QB while rushing 4 it makes a coach look a lot better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1806]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
Re: So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway...
1
Nov 22, 2024, 3:06 PM
[ in reply to So, do you find it strange or laughable? Anyway... ] |
|
I could probably respond to every single point but I'm just going to not...
- We have walk-ons playing O-line this week bc it's the citadel and several are hurt . And a few left the team.
- Wesco and Moore didn't play the first game of their college career against the best defense they'll see all year? And you're telling me you've seen something out of either one of those that would have cut the massive deficit in that loss?
- you complain that we don't put our best players on the field and then turned around and complained that we had one of our best players on the field and blamed dabo for getting a field goal blocked because one of our best players wasn't on the field. And two or three of those were the kickers fault.
Luck is a convenient argument... In 2015 and 2016 we played 13 one score games winning 11 of those. Only half of those were against the ranked opponent. I suppose it took a lot of luck those years to win games? Sounds like we should have had several other losses?
During our playoff run we actually had 22 one score games, fortunately losing only four of those.
I think we all want the team to do better, but we're still pretty dang good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [32387]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 35347
Joined: 2003
|
statistically, most don't donate to IPTAY either***
2
Nov 22, 2024, 12:09 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [6694]
TigerPulse: 100%
41
|
Re: So Do Season Ticket Contributors Count As Donations ???
1
Nov 22, 2024, 12:36 PM
|
|
I do think if it wasn't for the playoff system... what Dabo is doing is would be fine. However.....we have a new system that was put in place and we seem to be weeding ourselves out of elite existence. Our players are looking like middle school kids compared to the other kids on top 16 teams. Why our players are not looking like those players.
Our strength and conditioning just doesn't seem dedicated and serious enough. The playoff spot is what will intrigue recruits to a big degree as well as something else we don't have.........money. And what I see is that money is not being earned by players for the performance for the team they're on.......its just being given and without playing significant snaps yet that could make them a potential legend.
There is something definitely and completely off with the set-up of college football now.
Clemson of course is not alone in what we're doing....we have Navy... Army...and Air Force.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3176]
TigerPulse: 75%
34
|
Clemson is absolutely alone
1
Nov 22, 2024, 1:30 PM
|
|
Army, Navy and Air Force cannot use the portal and their military students cannot take NIL $$.
Clemson can do both.
Clemson has a choice. The military academies do not.
Ergo, you are proposing a false equivalence.
In additional to the Congressional appointment requirements, the military academies do not fall under civilian law.
They are governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
That makes them unique. Clemson does not share in they particular type of uniqueness.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [21637]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
|
Re: Clemson is absolutely alone
4
Nov 22, 2024, 2:44 PM
|
|
Right on cue!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3176]
TigerPulse: 75%
34
|
Rent free in your head
Nov 22, 2024, 3:06 PM
|
|
Right in cue.
Surprise me. Post something intelligent or meaningful...just...once.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46625]
TigerPulse: 78%
58
Posts: 34853
Joined: 2003
|
Thats right. We are the outlier because Dabo decided to draw arbitrary lines.
1
2
Nov 22, 2024, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to Clemson is absolutely alone ] |
|
It wouldn’t be so ridiculous if he weren’t paid $11 million a year with the expectation that we will be an elite program.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [21637]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
|
Re: Thats right. We are the outlier because Dabo decided to draw arbitrary lines.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 3:01 PM
|
|
😭😭😭
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3176]
TigerPulse: 75%
34
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1923]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46625]
TigerPulse: 78%
58
Posts: 34853
Joined: 2003
|
If that is Clemsons belief, we are in huge trouble.***
1
Nov 22, 2024, 11:36 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [37957]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 10499
Joined: 2015
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
3
Nov 22, 2024, 12:41 PM
|
|
Yea I noticed that a while back. Probably does not attend the games or have any skin in the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
2
Nov 22, 2024, 1:21 PM
|
|
Skin in the game. That’s the phrase I was looking for. Thanks & +1.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3176]
TigerPulse: 75%
34
|
False premise.
1
1
Nov 22, 2024, 12:50 PM
|
|
It's not the salary that gets hee complaints.
It's the diminishing ROI the university is getting for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [99536]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 29671
Joined: 2005
|
^^^doesn't pay to post on TigerNet***
5
5
Nov 22, 2024, 1:23 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3176]
TigerPulse: 75%
34
|
It's just like Dabo.
1
3
Nov 22, 2024, 1:32 PM
|
|
Inadequate ROI.
Smart people understand that concept
Obviously, you don't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Warrior [4890]
TigerPulse: 100%
37
|
Re: It's just like Dabo.
3
Nov 22, 2024, 2:40 PM
|
|
You can't get ROI if you're not doing the I(nvesting) part. Otherwise, you're just complaining about how other people are spending THEIR money.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
^^^^^^This^^^^^^
2
Nov 22, 2024, 3:03 PM
|
|
Is what I’m talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
I would love to see us pick up a couple of portal
5
5
Nov 22, 2024, 1:16 PM
|
|
Players to meet some needs. But two major problems (among others) are:
1. Good players in the portal most likely are already bought and paid for. Dabo is not going to tamper to attract players.
2. Morale. Suppose Dabo finds a good DL and offers him, say $2 million. How do you think that will affect other players on the team? I mean, if I make $100 K in my job, I might be content until I find out someone else with fewer skills and less ability is making $150 K. Then I might question my employer’s motives or wisdom.
There’s a lot to think about with NIL. Dabo doesn’t want to burn down something it took him 15 years to build when some changes may be coming soon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3176]
TigerPulse: 75%
34
|
Respectively, prove it.
2
Nov 22, 2024, 1:34 PM
|
|
With evidence, not speculation.
Most of the 130 other non military FBS teams don't seem to have those issues.
Neither do the Clemson BB and MBB teams.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: Respectively, prove it.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 1:41 PM
|
|
I have a modicum of common sense, and I know human nature. I’m not so sure about your statement that it doesn’t affect other FBS schools. I might ask you to prove that. I see an awful lot of players hitting the portal, some year after year.
For basketball, not sure that’s apples to apples. You’re talking about far fewer players. One or two quality players can turn a basketball team around, too. More difficult to do in football.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Warrior [4890]
TigerPulse: 100%
37
|
Re: Respectively, prove it.
1
Nov 22, 2024, 2:41 PM
[ in reply to Respectively, prove it. ] |
|
Yes. It works so well for Florida State.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [1163]
TigerPulse: 100%
26
|
Re: Respectively, prove it.
Nov 22, 2024, 11:20 PM
[ in reply to Respectively, prove it. ] |
|
Florida State says hello
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Time Great [97852]
TigerPulse: 100%
63
Posts: 97369
Joined: 2009
|
I hate that you wasted such a good post in the middle of a thread.
Nov 23, 2024, 6:34 AM
[ in reply to I would love to see us pick up a couple of portal ] |
|
It should be a thread starter so people get a view of good reasoning which is much needed here being our team has fallen to a 8-2 season.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [67583]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 89959
Joined: 2001
|
Some people just aren't happy unless they're b!tc#ing & moaning about something***
5
5
Nov 22, 2024, 1:27 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 96%
6
|
Re: Some people just aren't happy unless they're b!tc#ing & moaning about something***
2
Nov 22, 2024, 2:47 PM
|
|
I just wish they would find another board to post on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7572]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
|
Strange how ? I am not a member either and I appreciate
1
Nov 22, 2024, 2:51 PM
|
|
being able to talk with others who love Clemson football without feeling the need to pay for that ability.
Thank you TNET for allowing me the platform free from charge where I can associate with other Tiger fans. No, we are not all alike. We are different, and that is a good thing.
I do not care to pay for a site just to become part of a fraternity(cult as some call it) and if I did I would simply walk away and everyone would be just fine, but I would miss some of the fun banter and even some of the more heated banter which is good for popcorn viewing during downtimes or during games
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: Strange how ? I am not a member either and I appreciate
1
Nov 22, 2024, 2:59 PM
|
|
Not trying to denigrate everyone who doesn’t pay. Just the ones who say we are overpaying Dabo. I’m pretty good at maffs, so I can easily put 2 & 2 together and conclude that if they are not paying here, they probably aren’t contributing a dime to his salary elsewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7476]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
|
Re: Strange how ? I am not a member either and I appreciate
1
Nov 22, 2024, 10:14 PM
|
|
I’m a Clemson graduate. My wife is a Clemson graduate. My daughter graduated in ‘23. Getting ready to send my son to Clemson. I’m a member of IPTAY and give yearly to the Clemson CAFLS program. My daughter and son attended camps at Clemson throughout their high school years. My family and I attend multiple football games a year, basketball, baseball, and try to go to a soccer game or two.
How bout you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: Strange how ? I am not a member either and I appreciate
Nov 23, 2024, 10:24 AM
|
|
Please re-read my previous posts in this string. If anything is difficult to understand, please let me know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46625]
TigerPulse: 78%
58
Posts: 34853
Joined: 2003
|
I dont recall anyone here having an issue with Dabos salary
1
2
Nov 22, 2024, 3:02 PM
|
|
when our performance was commensurate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [2037]
TigerPulse: 96%
31
|
Re: I dont recall anyone here having an issue with Dabos salary
Nov 23, 2024, 6:21 AM
|
|
Whine on JK. You are the best.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4464]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
3
Nov 22, 2024, 4:06 PM
|
|
How much money does a person have to have before their opinion matters to you? Asking for a friend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7978]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
Nov 22, 2024, 6:34 PM
|
|
It explains why some people never see the truth, as a poor man can speak it while many a rich man try to silence it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [111]
TigerPulse: 61%
11
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
1
Nov 22, 2024, 4:11 PM
|
|
Dabo was a great coach when we were stocked w 5 stars, now that we don’t have overpowering talent….dabo doesn’t seem to be coaching near as well. Open your eyes people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [17035]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
Posts: 15201
Joined: 1999
|
On again, off again donor
Nov 22, 2024, 6:34 PM
|
|
who supports Dabo. I am not sure what donating has to do with the quality of an opinion.
No need to get into my reasons for choosing to donate or not donate, but I will say that if TigerNet came up with a permanent giving level available to certain age groups or all of TigerNet, I would do it.maybe 10x the annual giving level?
I am a lifelong fan and an alumnus, and I love my Tigers! There are aspects of TigerNet that I love without reservation, but others that make me a sometime donor.
Who else would sign up for a lifetime donor level?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5438]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
Re: On again, off again donor
1
Nov 22, 2024, 6:38 PM
|
|
Again, I’m not criticizing all non donors. Everyone is welcome to post. I’m criticizing those who gripe about Dabo’s salary but don’t contribute a dime here, or to IPTAY, or anything else Clemson. No skin in the game, as someone said earlier, but the loudest voices.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3913]
TigerPulse: 100%
35
|
Im always complaining about my favorite character
Nov 22, 2024, 11:35 PM
|
|
Not getting more time on my fav show (Jaime on Yellowstone!). ; )
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3176]
TigerPulse: 75%
34
|
Are you saying...
Nov 23, 2024, 8:12 AM
|
|
That TNet pays Dabo's salary?
Or, are you posting a false dilemma?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3586]
TigerPulse: 100%
34
|
Re: Does anyone find it strange
Nov 23, 2024, 8:16 AM
|
|
I find it strange that so many people don't seem to understand that portal players could also get hurt and miss games.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 61
| visibility 5372
|
|
|
50
