Replies: 41
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Scout Team [167]
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Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 5:55 PM
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Notre Dame posed ZERO passing threat. They had a back-up qb who threw for 85 yards total. We KNEW they were going to run it at us. Our defense was previously in the top 10 in the country against the run.
So what happened?
I'm accustomed to us stuffing the run. When we've been pushed around in the past on the line of scrimmage, there was a passing threat as well. Think Justin Fields, Olave, and Smith Njigba in 2020. You take your chances with them or Trey Sermon. With a lot of weapons, you have to pick your poison, and they just had too much for us that day.
How with all that talent on the DL could we not sell out to stop the run?
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CU Guru [1056]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 5:57 PM
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It's not X's and O's. They just got whipped physically.
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All-In [32056]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 5:58 PM
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Yes that would be the right answer.
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Associate AD [812]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 9, 2022, 10:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain ] |
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My take from watching the game twice is that our linebackers are always out of position...ND was holding and tackling on every play but we should still have had a massive advantage...we talk about great athletes but we really need great linebackers and folks who will fight in the trenches...we should have adjusted early or made them pass but we kept getting slashed in the middle...looking back Skalski would have killed them, smart instinctive linebackers can be taught...Clemson was once great at taking a 3 star and making him a 4 or 5 star...we need to continue that tradition! You are right make them pass...how many try to make DJ run?
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CU Guru [1716]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 5:59 PM
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What happened? We got blown off the ball. That's what happened. Look at the line on the snap every single play. It never moved in the direction of ND's backfield.
Also it didn't help that Myles Murphy decided holding the edge was less important than trying to shoot a gap responsibility that wasn't his to make a play in the backfield on several runs that bounced outside.
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Commissioner [977]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:04 PM
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It was x and o’s and mentality, so both
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Commissioner [977]
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Commissioner [977]
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Legend [18063]
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CU Guru [1716]
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Re: The million dollar question is did M. Murphy have the edge
Nov 8, 2022, 7:10 PM
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ND was running a lot of 12, 13, and 22 personnel. You don't set the edge with an off ball LB against that kind of personnel grouping. Not with 4 down linemen.
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1st Rounder [628]
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Re: The million dollar question is did M. Murphy have the edge
Nov 8, 2022, 11:06 PM
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5-2-4
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110%er [6578]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:03 PM
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Their O line blew up our D line.
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Orange Blooded [4199]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:05 PM
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its not x's and o's we got our butts kicked ....that simple
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Orange Blooded [4200]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:16 PM
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Sometimes the other team wants to win more than the Tigers. Getting 18-23 years old ready to play a game is a major challenge. I could/would not even try to handle that task. Getting my 17 year Grandson up in the morning to go to school is enough of a challenge.
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Scout Team [167]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain ] |
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It ain't that simple, and that answer won't suffice. Obviously we got our butts kicked.
HOW did we get our butts kicked? Why couldn't we adjust when we knew that was all they could do?
Is Notre Dame's line and rbs so much better than our DL, filled with day 1 nfl talent?
If you say yes, then understand Marshall held Notre Dame to 130 yards rushing. Half what we gave up.
I want to know how the universally agreed upon, most talented and experienced part of our team performed at half the level of Marshall against the same competition.
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Hall of Famer [22514]
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They often gained leverage with motion and we didn't respond
Nov 8, 2022, 6:19 PM
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pre snap to balance it out. We didn't show up with the required intensity, but I noticed that quite a bit.
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CU Medallion [50110]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:20 PM
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Iron sharpens Iron may be part of it. In practice, all they have is our oline. But it's been a problem all year tbh.
That said, I'd like to know why everyone was rating our front 7 lights out for a year. Pundits and analysts that don't speak highly of Clemson even predicted we'd be great.
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All-Conference [412]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:24 PM
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I almost pulled all of my hair out Saturday night. At halftime, we had just over 50 yards IIRC. In the second half, Notre Dame ran it down our throats, and asked us how we liked it! There haven't been many games in the Dabo era where we were beat physically. Saturday was definitely one of them. We were supposed to have the best D-line in the country at the beginning of the season. While we have had injuries, I have been disappointed in the play of some of our stars when they are in there. I just looked, and bless his heart for everything he has gone through this season, but Brian Bresee has 6 tackles and 1.5 sacks for the 2022 season. I wish ALL our players played with Shipley's heart! GO TIGERS!!!
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Asst Coach [733]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:28 PM
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Wasn’t X’s and O’s When you know someone’s going to run, you stack the box. And we did.
You ask why didn’t we sell out on the run…we did.
It didn’t help.
Hence why Dabo’s own words: “an a.$.$ kicking”
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Scout Team [167]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:39 PM
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Well then, this team isn't worthy of the top 25 and our defensive front 7 talent is vastly over-rated.
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Asst Coach [733]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:48 PM
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I didn't say it. Dabo did.
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CU Guru [1716]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain ] |
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The defensive front 7 talent is vastly overrated. Take off the homer glasses off for a moment. Would anyone really be happy if their NFL team spent a high day one draft pick on Murphy or Bresee? I mean do either of them actually produce like a first round pick? They both living off of recruiting hype.
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CU Medallion [56154]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:33 PM
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With any of the blue bloods, the defense will only hold up for so long, then they get tired just like regular human will do when you keep them on the field bc your OC can't come up with a plan that will allow the O to make 1st downs so the D can get some rest
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Orange Blooded [3578]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 6:35 PM
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Out leveraged, out physicaled, and missed gap assignments galore.
Everyone keeps blasting Murphy but looks to me like the LBs are the ones responsible for the containment and they kept getting sealed in and caught in traffic. I'm pretty certain Murphy is playing his assignment to a T and the LBs are just getting outleveraged. It's been this way all year. The big runs are usually outside and alot of teams are noticing the containing LBs let motioned blockers leverage them. Also seems like unbalanced sets completely befuddled the entire defense, FSU also had success with this. Alot of times guys are looking at the sidelines confused on what to do vs those jumbo unbalanced sets.
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Orange Blooded [3620]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:34 PM
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My understanding was that our DTs, which is the strength of our team, were getting doubled every play. Even when you rotate them, they still wear down from that constant mauling.
Once they imposed their will on our DTs, they still had multiple big uglies in disciplined full attack mode to deal with the DE on one side—ignore the other—and the LB who didn’t blitz the wrong gap, along with DBs who were outweighed by 40 lbs.
Since Venables came, our defenses have not relied on physicality. We’re not finesse, but we’re fast and hyper-aggressive up front, relying on our DTs to be immovable in the center of the line. SEC defenses are similar. But when the weather conditions and personnel issues both compel our opponent to run the football, you’d think we could have gone to a 5-4, 5-3 or at least 4-4 to get more beef on the field. Having said that, the one guy you wouldn’t take off the field was Makuba—it seemed like he prevented multiple long touchdowns.
I think if they had it to do again, Weslichek and also Streeter would have made more extreme adjustments than they did. Sometimes people who are fresh in leadership are so fearful of overreacting that they underreact. Our QBs are not the only ones who need to grow into their positions for us to be successful.
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Orange Blooded [2934]
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Eight OL blocking 4 DL = a doubleteam on each of ours. Tight
Nov 8, 2022, 6:37 PM
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gaps don't allow a LB to squeeze through a hole to try to get to the RB before he picks his gap. LB blitzes and picks the wrong gap. No second-level line of defense, 10-15 yd run is result.
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: Eight OL blocking 4 DL = a doubleteam on each of ours. Tight
Nov 8, 2022, 7:24 PM
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This is what I have observed all year. Our D line plays to high. They are big strong and great athletes but you lose a lot of leverage if you are immediately standing up and looking to make a play in the backfield. A big strong O line that fires out quickly can hold the upper hand. You can get by fairly well with smaller or little weaker O line but not with one closer to your ability. I remember D coordinator for Danny in the national championship years Tom Harper had a wire cage made about 4 1/2' high that D linemen had to fire out of their stance and run in under over and over again. I remember William Perry had to do it the most. He was strong as a bull and was accustomed to just throwing guys aside and going to the backfield. William learned and if you watch old film you can see he charges out low. Simple answer is numerous things can be involved but if you play too high you are giving away your leverage. Our D line has constantly been playing too high.
Message was edited by: prefab®
Message was edited by: prefab®
Message was edited by: prefab®
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All-TigerNet [11864]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:04 PM
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The ND offense used 3 TEs plus 5 OL (8) to block 4 DL/DE and 3 LBs (7). They also used a lot of double team blocks on 2 of the DL/DE at a time, get the back to make a LB miss or not get tackled for 7 or 8 yards. When the defense wanted to cheat, the TE Mayer would slip out for short pass. The sad part is they did it against Syracuse too. The Tigers saw it on film and had no answer.
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Head Coach [760]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 10:28 PM
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I agree 100%, my question is why have we not worked on or seen a bear front or even a 6-2 against a heavy run team like this. It's all about gap control & not letting them big hogs dbl team the interior down lineman. We are extremely deep on our d-line & had plenty of great reserves to add the extra down line man. It would've cut out the dbl teams (except on the edge), but it would've allowed the D-ends to keep outside shade on the tackle/tight ends.
Yes they would've went to the tight end passing game, or the short passing game. I'd of took our chances with Pyne throwing the ball vs the heavy personnel run game.
I don't pretend to know everything in the college or NFL defensive schemes, but I coached youth, JV & Highschool defense for over 10 years. You can coach technique, conditioning, fundamentals all you want. When your boys are out numbered & out-maned in ever facet on the line, then you add more bodies to the line.
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Varsity [202]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:13 PM
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It was a complete collapse. Once ND realized our O wasn’t going to score they loaded up on the run schematically and we never adjusted schematically. We coached scared on both sides of the ball. Scared to throw over the middle because of the wind on offense (until it was too late) and scared to load the box on D because we were so afraid of their TEs in the passing game. Our D-line gave good effort early but got tired and sloppy late. I put 80% of the blame on coaching.
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110%er [5301]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:23 PM
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It just seemed they were weak. At the point of contact with the ball carrier they would let the carrier get 3 extra yards. It would be 2nd and 5 instead of 2nd and 8.
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MVP [538]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:48 PM
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Notre Dame s o line is one of the biggest in college football. Some NFL guys. We hung tough in the 1st half but just broke in the second half.
Doesn't mean are guys are not good. Just a heavy weight boxing match. After so many body blows you just don't have anything left in the tank
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:55 PM
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Our D line plays too high.
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110%er [5204]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 7:57 PM
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Simple…
Unbalanced line that completely complemented and cemented their down hill power and inside zone running game. A lot of 7 down OL with a 4 set surface to one side and 3 to the other…Two TEs (Mayer doesn’t get enough credit for his blocking ability). This creates 8-10 gaps on the OL and if yiy don’t have the numbers to defend it there will be problems…We ran a ton of this with Spiller and James Davis…
Wash the DL in dead center of the formation and create xtra blockers to attack the 2nd level. Common strategies for power running teams.
We just got beat and couldn’t adjust. The defense played well enough for 3 qtrs to keep us in it but they got winded.
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Orange Blooded [2358]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 8:06 PM
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If you want the true X's and O's, this type of run heavy line up is from the 60s and 70s. It requires a 5-man line to set and contain the run game. 4 and 3-man lines will not be able to stop it over the long haul. All that ND was missing was an I formation. A defensive nose man, two defensive tackles and two defensive ends that contain is what is required to stop this run heavy line up. If you want to ask someone about it, ask Danny.
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110%er [5204]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 8:10 PM
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Yup..
Which is why stacking the box would have done nothing without proper game planning and gap technique. They were daring Goodwin to stack the box..They had to prevent Mayer from slipping out
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Orange Blooded [3578]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 8, 2022, 8:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain ] |
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Well we finally agree on something and I take back my statement about having a lack of knowledge in regards to football, you definitely love football too and not just casually. We can agree to disagree about the QB situation though. You nailed it on this. We've been playing this "peak a boo" defense where the job of the DL is to really keep the lbs clean. It's an old school defense and like you said it's not effective when you're giving up numbers on the los bc then you can not keep the LBs clean.
Great points and glad to see people recognize that the D was physically unable to go hard in the late parts of the game, they were wore slap out.
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CU Medallion [68521]
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You don't need X and O knowledge for this one. All you need
Nov 8, 2022, 9:01 PM
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is eyesight. At anytime when the "flying camera" angle was used, from right behind the QB, Notre Dame's offensive line was BLOWING holes open in our defensive line. I mean, wide open DAYLIGHT holes. They basically took our guys manhood and stomped it into the ground.
Now, you can say we should have adjusted by stunting, stuffing our LB's into the line, and those are questions that could legitimately be asked. But, I do not think the coaches thought that dominance of our D-Line by ND's O-Line would continue all night. They were wrong.
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Orange Blooded [3578]
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Re: You don't need X and O knowledge for this one. All you need
Nov 8, 2022, 9:07 PM
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That was mainly in the late 3rd where it became consistent. Early in the game it was usually a guy in the wrong gap that led to their solid runs. But no doubt they owned the second half and bullied a wore out DL.
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Orange Blooded [4189]
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We lost containment numerous times
Nov 8, 2022, 10:28 PM
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The job of the defensive end is to set the edge (sometimes the job of strong side linebacker)
They have got to force the runner back into the center of the field and must deny them open field outside the hashes.
This means not biting on movement of the o line or backfield action.
We bit hard on play action and deceptive offensive line counters (line all pulls right or left). They gashed us horribly on the back side particularly off the left side of the offensive line.
The other problem was DT’s and inside backers holding gaps. Basically the o-line was pushing our DT’s around pretty good and out LB’s didn’t seem to be able to hold the gaps they created. They probably don’t have too much practice at this because notre dame is the only team that has truly imposed their will on our DT’s.
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CU Guru [1668]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 9, 2022, 3:45 AM
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They did to us what we usually do to other teams, the defense was on the field 10 more minutes than the offense, that is like staying on the field an extra quarter. They have big O-line guys and big backs and they just ran us over, especially late in the game. No X's and O's required, they found something that worked and they kept at it. ND is a good team, people act like we got beat by 1-7 program, they were preseason #5, they had three ugly losses early and they figured out what works for them... power running. They did the same thing to Syracuse. Had we gotten a lead or played them even they would not have had the option to just pound and grind like they did.
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Orange Blooded [3528]
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Re: Someone with X and O knowledge explain
Nov 9, 2022, 9:27 AM
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BUTT KICKING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plain & Simple
As we have done to others in the past***
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