Replies: 52
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CU Guru [1237]
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Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 8:54 PM
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When I see the basketball related comments on this Board, I have a feeling that the ones who want Brownell fired are the younger folk, while those who are a little more patient are the (relatively) older folk (I could be completely wrong on this). Why do I think this way? Because the older folk who have followed Clemson basketball for a while realize that Clemson was never a basketball powerhouse, and every single Clemson coach struggled in the ACC.
How can I prove this? Let's check the regular season ACC records of the last six Clemson coaches. To compare apples with apples, I am presenting their records in their first six years at Clemson.
Foster: Won 35, Lost 41, win percentage = 46% Ellis: Won 39, Lost 45, win percentage = 46% Barnes: Won 28, Lost 36, win percentage = 44% (Barnes only stayed for 4 years) Shayatt: Won 20, Lost 60, win percentage = 25% Purnell: Won 43, Lost 53, win percentage = 45% Brownell: Won 50, Lost 54, win percentage = 48% (2010-2016)
You can see that statistically Brownell is doing just a shade better than other previous Clemson coaches. Clemson University has recently upgraded Littlejohn; chances are that this will bring better recruits and that Brownell can get the win percentage up to (say) 55%. Expecting much more than this is not facing reality.
Like everyone else, I too wish that the Tigers make the NCAA every year - but this will take a while.
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1st Rounder [646]
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I was all for giving Brownell the benefit of the doubt but I
Feb 25, 2017, 9:02 PM
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lost all confidence him after the bama game last year and he has proven again this year that he does not have a clue what to do in late game situations.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 9:02 PM
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By ACC Records I mean records against ACC teams.
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MVP [533]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 9:05 PM
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Rick Barnes?
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MVP [533]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 9:10 PM
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According to Wiki:
Barnes had great regular season success with 400+ wins and transformed the school
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Orange Blooded [4754]
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Missed last 6 years. Give me your timetable.
Feb 25, 2017, 9:08 PM
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When you expect us to return? You do know the Big Dance has 68 teams and we're outside of that for the last 6 years and you want to give this current regime a seventh try? If we're just gonna rollover and play dead then let me be the coach @ 100K and save the money for football. I'm a 60 year old guy and I'm disgusted with your thought process. I expect some level of success from EVERY athletic team Clemson fields. 14-14 (4-12 ACC) is not acceptable.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: Missed last 6 years. Give me your timetable.
Feb 25, 2017, 10:02 PM
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I did not provide a thought process; simple statistics.
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CU Guru [1779]
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I'm older, and I'm all for him going. The records
Feb 25, 2017, 9:09 PM
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are what they are but at least Foster and Ellis provided brief years of excitement and there is no way BB is as good as OP our Barnes. While Brownell hasn't had the big down years like Ellis did, her hasn't had any good ones either.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: I'm older, and I'm all for him going. The records
Feb 25, 2017, 10:03 PM
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Okay, I did say that I could be wrong about the age thing.
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110%er [7913]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 9:11 PM
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I'm 45 and I want him gone
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All-In [38455]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 10:14 PM
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Im a 47 near 48 year old Clemson fan and I believe that there is a coach out there who can raise Clemson basketball to heights it has never been . To being a consistent winner , a stalwart on the national scene and a regular in the Sweet 16 . It isn't logical to assume that since this has never taken place at a school with it's basketball program that it isn't ever going to . Look at what happened at Florida when they hired Billy Donovan . Look at Gonzaga . Look at Clemson as that and believe in that . Our administration should take to task that sort of regressive self-view of our basketball capabilities and find the coach who is willing to do the things to change this . I'm not suggesting it will be easy , but like Dabo said in his early days .." Why not here ?" .
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CU Guru [1124]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 10:16 PM
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I'm 40. Clemson grad. He gone.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 10:54 PM
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Love your brevity.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 11:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long) ] |
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I am almost 64 and I am darn tired of sorry records year after year. I've seen it all since Tates Locke. CBB is a fine person, but after seven years I am ready for major upgrade.
Clemson has the resources to start a steady rise with the right coach and staff. I do not want to blame Brownell, but somebody has to be accountable. We do not have to rate the past as being currently acceptable. Time for a change!
Go Tigers!
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 25, 2017, 10:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long) ] |
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You make very good points; maybe we can find another Dabo in basketball - although in Dabo's case we sort of lucked out - he just happened to be here when we hired him; did not have a great reputation prior to coming here and was hired as an interim.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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in general Clemson BBall "fans" are insane
Feb 25, 2017, 11:04 PM
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but like most insane people
they simply don't know it.
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Legend [18977]
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To further compare apples to apples
Feb 25, 2017, 11:07 PM
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I would run it year by year.
I don't know but I would suspect the ACC win % is going down year by year for 6 years.
I do like Brownell. I am on the fence for all this though. The team is obviously competitive just losing close game after close game with a few blow-outs losses. But the record is just awful.
I would not extend his contract but not fire him and pay a ridiculous buy-out. Seems like other traditional powerhouse football teams in the ACC have their runs, look at FSU. We are falling behind but "redoing" LJ just shows us how much they care about BB at Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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this is flat out wrong.. only this years' ACC record
Feb 25, 2017, 11:10 PM
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has gone down.
PLEASE!! for the love of everything Clemson
get your facts straight before rendering your "opinion".
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Legend [18977]
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I didn't have my facts straight...
Feb 25, 2017, 11:12 PM
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that's why I asked the OP go and post it to compare apples to apples.
It's called reading comprehension. You should try it before putting your 82% approval rating to the test.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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eff my "approval rating" - who cares what you think?
Feb 25, 2017, 11:37 PM
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at least I get my facts straight.
apparently you can't even find Wikipedia -
it's all right there....
ACC records: 9-7, 8-8, 5-13, 10-8, 8-10, 10-8, 4-10.
Brownell would be the winningest Clemson Coach in ACC history
if this team could ever man up and finish off a game....
some on this team can -
some are afraid...
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All-In [28740]
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Re: eff my "approval rating" - who cares what you think?
Feb 25, 2017, 11:40 PM
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i could do same #### over 7 yrs - guaranteed
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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then go tell DRAD - I hope he gives you the job...
Feb 25, 2017, 11:45 PM
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seriously.
it would be #### funny to watch one of you loudmouths
#### your pants and have your #### handed to you
in a way that only being "responsible for something"
can teach you.
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CU Guru [1535]
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Hey, dummy--bet I'm older than you, and I want
Feb 25, 2017, 11:32 PM
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Brownell gone yesterday. You know why? Because I know we can win here, and I know he's not the guy. Purnell took us to three straight tourneys. Barnes had us an overtime loss away from an elite 8, and he made the tourney a few other times. Ellis won here. So the way I look at it, before Brownell, three of the last four coaches prior to Brownell (Ellis, Barnes, and Purnell) had relative success here. Brownell? Can't win here, won't win here, should pack tonight.
By the way, Purnell had us in postseason basketball 6/7 years (3 NIT, 3 NCAA; Barnes had us in the postseason 4/4 years (1 NIT, 3 NCAA); Ellis had us in the postseason 8/10 years (5 NIT, 3 NCAA).
Brownell: He's had us in the postseason 2/6 years (1 NIT, 1 NCAA...with Purnell's players).
So to make an argument that somehow Brownell is doing as well as can be expected is just absurd. In terms of postseason appearances--the only stat that matters--Brownell is basically Larry Shyatt.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I guess that makes you old AND dumb...
Feb 25, 2017, 11:39 PM
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best of luck with that.
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CU Guru [1535]
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Excellent argument. Good talk.***
Feb 26, 2017, 6:56 AM
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CU Guru [1237]
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CU Guru [1535]
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You have a point. But I took your opening argument
Feb 26, 2017, 6:57 AM
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to be a little insulting...as if anyone who thought Brownell shouldn't be here was somehow naive or didn't understand the history of Clemson basketball. I took offense to that notion and responded in kind.
My bad.
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110%er [7203]
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Brownell may not be dean smith but he ain't no Larry Shyatt
Feb 26, 2017, 12:13 AM
[ in reply to Hey, dummy--bet I'm older than you, and I want ] |
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Just look at the facts/records. Brownell coaches in a tougher league than any of those other coaches (meaning tougher to get in the tourney.) he's no savior of our basketball program but he's been decent. The question is are u good with decent? Or do u want good/great? That has to bought with paying a coach in the top 5 salary range in the ACC? One that deserves that of course. But if we are just good with decent then we keep paying what decent coaches get paid. Very simple. But the Shyatt comparison is just over reacting. Do u remember those players? We are light years ahead of that
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CU Guru [1535]
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There is ZERO empirical evidence to suggest that
Feb 26, 2017, 6:58 AM
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Brownell is "decent."
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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There is ZERO evidence you know what you are talking
Feb 26, 2017, 4:06 PM
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about.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Shyatt vs Brownell
Feb 26, 2017, 8:46 PM
[ in reply to There is ZERO empirical evidence to suggest that ] |
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Check the actual scores of the games when Shyatt was at Clemson.
For every nice win we had under Shyatt, we suffered two or three absolute "Pistol Whippings" like our game against Louisville this year.
I know a loss is a loss, but blowout loses have been relatively rare under Brownell.
Not sure how being "decent" is defined, but our team has been very competitive this season and over the course of Brownells tenure.
I think we've been considerably better under Brownell than Shyatt ... but ... we're still nowhere near where we need to be.
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110%er [7203]
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Dang... facts are a fickle #####. So now y'all stop ya bit€hin
Feb 26, 2017, 12:03 AM
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Great job
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Legend [16749]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 26, 2017, 8:29 AM
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Good use of facts. But are we improving under Brad? His X's and O's are subpar for ACC coaching. I have not seen him outcoach anyone in the ACC. I think facts will prove his best years were with OP's guys.
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Orange Blooded [4052]
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i was there at all home games 77-81
Feb 26, 2017, 8:32 AM
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I also watched a bunch until mid to late 80's. I see the difference as back then - imo - there was better basketball played. The ACC was strong top to bottom. With the exception of this year, again IMO - there have been some pretty questionable teams. The schedule was balanced - thus - we played every team twice. Now, look at the talent we have had thru those years. From Larry Nance, elden, Dale, Horace, and quite a few more. Clemson played exciting basketball. We seldom lost at home - and when we did - we put up a good fight. Statistics sometimes distort the truth. Example of our football team thru the "dark" years. Finishing 7-4 or 8-3 looks good on statistics, but we barely beat poor teams. A competitive 45% is better than what we are seeing. Just an old guy with an opinion. I miss the old hard nosed inside teams. Give me some big bruisers like Tom wideman. Athletic forwards like Stan Rome and colon Abraham. 4's like spider man Wyatt, under skilled and over performers like chubby, wings Like Fred Gilliam. I remember getting up early to stand in line at LJ to get good seat. I remember virtually all ACC games sold out. Standing room only. Times have changed for sure. Maybe I just remember the good and not the bad. But sure was fun along the way. Old fart with pride.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: i was there at all home games 77-81
Feb 26, 2017, 10:36 AM
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I was there too! We definitely need to recruit better.
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Legend [16749]
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Re: i was there at all home games 77-81
Feb 26, 2017, 4:28 PM
[ in reply to i was there at all home games 77-81 ] |
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I was there too to watch Colon Abraham, Coles and other put on a great show to watch. Now not so much. And I don't blame the players.
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Hall of Famer [22456]
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If we could return to the Purnell level of accomplishment
Feb 26, 2017, 9:01 AM
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fans would be ecstatic and Littlejohn would be packed.
That ACC record is an absolutely meaningless stat, a fact confirmed by the NIT and NCAA tournament committees each year.
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Legend [19796]
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Kind of the Spurrier argument, isn't it?
Feb 26, 2017, 9:32 AM
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Best run in school history with absolutely nothing tangible to show for it
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Hall of Famer [22456]
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No. Not in the slightest. Oliver Purnell's teams steadily
Feb 26, 2017, 9:43 AM
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improved and never took a step back after achieving success. The bottom fell out on Spurrier his last few years because he stopped recruiting. Oliver's teams got progressively better, resulting in 7 straight postseason tournaments. His successor's first year was his successor's best year because it was his successor's most talented team. So, unlike Spurrier, OP built his team up each year and left the program in pretty good shape. OP's successor just couldn't build on the success. Nor could he even maintain it.
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Legend [19796]
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So you're saying OP's recruiting hadn't slipped?
Feb 26, 2017, 4:45 PM
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The Jennings class was a huge bust and when he left he had just one commitment, a guy who became a middling player at Georgia. OP just got out in time.
That said, BB has had enough time to recover from those two classes and has not
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110%er [8866]
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Or Purnell's 4 year investment in the Florida Rams
Feb 27, 2017, 11:23 AM
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Or Purnell's 4 year investment in the Florida Rams would have resulted in Shane Larkin signing with us, solidifying the guard issues we've had for the last 7 years - instead of signing with Purnell at DePaul (after Brownell slit the throat of that AAU relationship in the first 5 days on campus), and transferring to Miami after one season.
I also think Thornton was better suited to play the James Mays role he was slated for with Clemson than the back to the basket 4/5 that he would ultimately play at Georgia. He was an athlete, short on skill.
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110%er [9106]
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Difference is: they all went to the dance. BB hasn't done it
Feb 26, 2017, 9:59 AM
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except 1 year with OP's guys. Its about going to the dance, not winning %
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: Difference is: they all went to the dance. BB hasn't done it
Feb 26, 2017, 10:38 AM
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Going to the dance is sometimes out of control of the coach and depends on many other factors.
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Legend [19796]
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We've only been a candidate for the dance once
Feb 26, 2017, 4:47 PM
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in the last six years. There's missing due to uncontrollable circumstances, and missing because you aren't near good enough. We haven't been near good enough except for KJ's last season
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 26, 2017, 10:11 AM
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What is their winning percentage compared to the 1-2 year average before they started? OP cleaned up Shyatt's mess. Barnes had the Slab 5. Brownell was handed a NCAA tournament team. That makes percentages a worthless measure.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: Clemson Coaches Basketball Records (long)
Feb 26, 2017, 10:40 AM
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Good point; perhaps we should compare their statistics with only the boys they recruited.
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Orange Blooded [4903]
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I am 54 and think a change is needed
Feb 26, 2017, 5:08 PM
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Your ACC records don't mean anything as NCAA and NIT invites are the great equalizer and take into account exactly who you play and beat in the ACC and out if conference.
If we really don't think Clemson can do better why renovate LJ? We can do better. I would take Bill Foster and the old Rick Barnes in a skinny minute over a clearly downtrending Brownell.
Bring a real fan means believing we can do better.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: I am 54 and think a change is needed
Feb 26, 2017, 7:39 PM
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I agree; we can do better.
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Varsity [231]
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talk about cherry picking stats
Feb 26, 2017, 5:36 PM
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you pick one stat where Brownell is decent and then don't even include his 4-12 from this year. And I wouldn't call ACC record an apples-to-apples comparison considering how much the league has changed, going from 7 teams to 15. Here's an even simpler stat that is way more inclusive (every game), and I think is much more relevant than your stat. Sure, non-conference SOS varies between coaches, but so does in-conference SOS:
overall winning % at Clemson Foster: .595 Ellis: .581 Barnes: .607 Shayatt: .455 Purnell: .611 Brownell: .545
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Varsity [231]
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here's some cherry picked stats
Feb 26, 2017, 5:57 PM
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where I'll leave out a good year of Brownell like you left out a bad year.
overall winning % at Clemson, leaving out 1st year (because it's probably more of a function of what previous coach left you):
Foster: .590 Ellis: .584 Barnes: .641 Shayatt: .420 Purnell: .646 Brownell: .527
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Varsity [231]
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addition to my first post
Feb 26, 2017, 6:29 PM
[ in reply to talk about cherry picking stats ] |
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I didn't notice this when I made my post (and I wish you could edit without paying). According to sports-reference.com, these are the SOS ratings for each coach while at Clemson (higher number is tougher schedule) Foster: 5.36 Ellis: 6.60 Barnes: 9.48 Shyatt: 6.56 Purnell: 8.05 Brownell: 6.52
So Brownell has had a tougher schedule than Foster, about the same as Ellis and Shyatt, and easier than Purnell or Barnes. Now add that to the post showing overall win %, and that's some pretty relevant stats I think. I've never been a Brownell basher, nor have a been a fan either, but after looking into the stats, he's worse than I realised. Clemson can do better. Thanks for enlightening me. I guess the pumpers can always say "He's better than Shyatt!"
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: talk about cherry picking stats
Feb 26, 2017, 7:44 PM
[ in reply to talk about cherry picking stats ] |
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I was thinking about looking into every game as you have done, but then I remembered that we used to have such cupcake schedules in some years that even 20 wins would not get us to the Dance. Also, by playing as many ACC games, as we do now, we cannot schedule the weak teams we used to before. But I agree, there are many ways to look at stats - I am not saying that the stats I presented are the most meaningful; but they do provide some sort of comparison.
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Heisman Winner [141196]
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#math***
Feb 26, 2017, 7:45 PM
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Replies: 52
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