My chains are gone, Chris Tomlin.

1. Creation. How did the universe come into existence? Either something, or someone, created it or nothing created it. What scientific evidence do you have that nothing can create something? Do you believe nothing took nothing and created something out of nothing? If so, I admire your faith. I could never have that much faith. I would need some evidence. To me it takes much less faith to believe that something, or someone, was involved in that creation.

2. Design. The universe is so remarkably and precisely designed - all the way from the galaxies yet undiscovered down to the sub-atomic particles that it cries out for a designer. Do you believe that this nothing that took nothing and created something also just so happened to create something so precisely and exactly designed that it somehow sustains itself with no intelligent being directing it? Now, THAT is what I call faith.

3. Morality. Without God, there is no morality. There is no good and evil, no right and wrong. Everything is just opinion. You think it is wrong to rape, murder, steal, abuse children, etc. I agree. But, why is it wrong? Hitler and Stalin thought killing millions of people was good and right. Why is you opinion right and theirs is wrong? If there is no standard outside of ourselves, then good and evil is just an opinion. Besides, if there is no god, then we are all just moist robots who are doing nothing more than responding to our surroundings. If Hitler evolved so that the electrons in his brain told him killing Jews was right, then he's just acting on how he was programmed though billions of years of random chance. In fact, without God, there is no free will. All of us are just doing what we have to do. You are posting on this message board because your electrons in your brain are simply responding to outside stimulus.

All of those point to a god. None of them point to The God. The next one does.

4. If Jesus was not raised from the dead, what happened? Have you ever really examined the evidence or do you just write it off as impossible because you disparately do want to believe so you don't want to look at the evidence. I have been asking non-believers for over 50 years this simple question, "If Jesus wasn't raised from the dead, what happened? And, give me the reasons why your explanation holds up against the facts and the evidence we do have." So far, no one has taken me up on it. They say something like, "It's just a myth or a fairy tale or something made up hundreds of years after the fact." But, none of those explanations are consistent with reality. His resurrection, appearance, and ascension do not hold up as being a myth or a fairy tale.

I understand your unbelief. But, why is it so important that you read posts from those who do believe and challenge them. I didn't call you out. You started the conversation with me. Why? Is it because way down, deep inside your mind (not your brain, your mind - those are two different entities completely) you are uncomfortable with your belief?

echoes

CU Guru [1057]

TigerPulse: 97%

Posts: 1526

Joined: 11/15/23

Re: Evidence.

May 12, 2024, 1:32 PM

1. Something from nothing is a thing christians say, it is not the scientific consensus or something I believe. The big bang just states that the universe expanded from a single point, not that it came from nothing.

>If so, I admire your faith. I could never have that much faith.

It's always amusing when religious people use faith as the pejorative.

>I would need some evidence.

No you wouldn't, you believe someone rose from the dead on hearsay alone.

>To me it takes much less faith to believe that something, or someone, was involved in that creation.

So you just believe it though, you don't have evidence.

Furthermore, if you are saying that the universe must have had a creator or couldn't have always existed but then turn around and say that the thing that created it can, that is special pleading. You aren't solving the mystery, you are just adding to it.

2.

> Design. The universe is so remarkably and precisely designed - all the way from the galaxies yet undiscovered down to the sub-atomic particles that it cries out for a designer.

This is just something you are projecting onto it, not something that "cries out" for a designer. Does infant cancer cry out for a designer? Don't just name the pleasant things.

>Do you believe that this nothing that took nothing and created something

No, I don't, but that won't keep you from mindlessly repeating it now will it?

>Now, THAT is what I call faith.

Again, just lol. I agree, believing something on faith alone IS ridiculous.

3. >Morality. Without God, there is no morality.

Yeah, that's just not true, unless you are saying you wouldn't see a problem murdering or ###### if god didn't tell you not to. That isn't what you are saying, is it?

It's honestly a bit concering that you guys say things like this. Like, the only thing keeping you from being a totally morally bankrupt person is being told not to? that's... comforting.

>Hitler and Stalin thought killing millions of people was good and right. Why is you opinion right and theirs is wrong?

You might want to read up on the bible buddy. The bible describes God genociding peoplea at a rate that would embarass Hitler/Stalin. Men, women and children alike. You make god mad... oh boy, he'll mob boss your family.

So don't go throwing around "killing millions of people" when god you believe does EXACTLY that.

>Why is you opinion right and theirs is wrong? If there is no standard outside of ourselves, then good and evil is just an opinion.

Again, you think you need god to say that Hitler is wrong? That's concerning.

>Besides, if there is no god, then we are all just moist robots who are doing nothing more than responding to our surroundings.

I happen to love the moist robots in my life, I'm sorry you think of people that way.

4. > If Jesus was not raised from the dead, what happened? Have you ever really examined the evidence or do you just write it off as impossible because you disparately do want to believe so you don't want to look at the evidence.

Are you serious? The reason I stopped being a Christian was precisely because I examined the evidence. I learned too much.

What do you mean "what happened"? Jesus was an apocalyptic jew just like the plethora of others at that time. He was preaching that he was king of the jews and got himself killed. This probably confused his followers who then came up with an ad hoc explanation.

The gospels were written decades after the fact. It's clearly legendary myth. This one happened to have a enticing message of eternal life so it blew up.

Have YOU looked at the evidence? You don't have anything that doesn't amount to hearsay. Look, we can put this to rest right now: show me a SINGLE piece of verifiable evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. You can't do it but that won't stop you from continuing to say the evidence points to him rising from the dead.

>"If Jesus wasn't raised from the dead, what happened? And, give me the reasons why your explanation holds up against the facts and the evidence we do have.

Well, I just did. It's EASILY explained as legend.

>They say something like, "It's just a myth or a fairy tale or something made up hundreds of years after the fact."

Because that's a good response.

>But, none of those explanations are consistent with reality.

yes it does. Legendary accounts have happend ALL THE TIME. We have exactly zero verifiable evidence that he rose from the dead. Again, if you have it, show it.

>His resurrection, appearance, and ascension do not hold up as being a myth or a fairy tale.

It most certainly does. All we have are a small number of people claiming it happened. how does that not hold up at myth or fairy tale? It sounds exactly like myth. It sounds just as legendary as islam or mormonism.

>I understand your unbelief. But, why is it so important that you read posts from those who do believe and challenge them.

Again, why are forums so confusing for you? Do you ask this in any other forum topic? If not, maybe do some self reflection, I don't know why religion and philosophy forums are so baffling for you guys.

>I didn't call you out. You started the conversation with me. Why? Is it because way down, deep inside your mind (not your brain, your mind - those are two different entities completely) you are uncomfortable with your belief?

You stated, and I quote: "Trying to have a discussion with an arrogant or antagonistic agnostic is fruitless. As Greg Koukl says, "You don't try to convince him. His mind is made up. You just put a stone in his shoe and walk away.""

How is calling me an arrogant/antagonistic agnostic not calling me out? Are we just lying now? I mean probably, it's par for the course with christians.

flag link

military_tech

thumb_down

thumb_up

Re: My chains are gone, Chris Tomlin.

Re: My chains are gone, Chris Tomlin.

Re: My chains are gone, Chris Tomlin.

Actually, I do deserve hell.

Re: Actually, I do deserve hell.

Just curious.

Re: Just curious.

Until you realize you are a sinner...

Re: Until you realize you are a sinner...

Re: Until you realize you are a sinner...

Re: Until you realize you are a sinner...

I've come to the following conclusion.

Re: I've come to the following conclusion.

Evidence.

Re: Evidence.

Thanks for the discussion.

Re: Thanks for the discussion.

Re: I've come to the following conclusion.

As the parable of the soils says.

TigerBoard POTD